Star Wars SE Skills in D&D

[airwalkrr]

SWRE comes out soon, and I am intrigued by the simplicity of the system's skills. I am thinking of adopting it for D&D. Here are the basic premises:

1) Condensed skill list combining those skills that are similar, like spot/listen or hide/move silently.
2) Simplified skill calculation. Skill bonus = 1/2 level + ability modifier + 5 if trained + 5 if Skill Focus feat.
3) Each character gets to choose a certain number of trained skills based on class and Intelligence.

I think the skill system of D&D 3e, while innovative and an improvement over AD&D's proficiency system, is clunky. It is a proud nail that is a bit too complicated for its own good and a road-block to generating fast characters. What are your thoughts?

Edit: fixed title

 

[FireLance]

I like the idea.

 

[Someone]

I like it, but don't know how to handle multiclassing. Suppose I'm a fighter 5, and want to multiclass into Wizard. I need some key skills to work well as a wizard, like Concentration, Spellcraft, etc, that fighter's don't need at all. Either you don't get new skills, and then I need a lot of character planning or am screwed, or you get new skills and multiclassing is rewarded even more than currently is.

An option would be to have a list of class skills for each class. Skills you're untrained or trained in every class follow the normal formula: 1/2 level + ability score or level+?+ ability score. If it's trained for some classes and untrained for others, it'd be trained levels+?+1/2 untrained levels+ ability score. This complicates calculatin the final score, but only if you multiclass al lot. Since NPCs tend to be simpler than PCs the simplicity the system represent to DMs is preserved.

 

[atomn]

I can't make a good judgement until I actually learn and use the SWSE version of skills but right now I don't like the idea. I don't like that a high level character who has no training in a skill can be better than a low level expert. Also, it seems like skilled character classes will only be useful for a few levels because once you're trained you no longer have to worry with that skill (unless you take Skill Focus). Unless the number of skills you can train is low for the Rogue-ish character (meaning it would be especially low for skill barren characters), I would think a few levels of Rogue would make you trained in every skill you would ever need. Especially since lots of the skills are being combined together. Still, like I said, I haven't seen it in action and haven't seen the math so maybe it won't work out like I think it will and I'll be happy with the new system. Until I actually do see it I'll do my best to keep an optimistic, open mind!

 

[nerfherder]

Skill Training and Focus in SWSE is gained as follows:

• 1st level characters gain N+int bonus Trained Skills from class list, where N is class dependent (ranging from 2-6 in SWSE).
• Additional trained skills are gained by taking the Skill Training feat. This allows the character to pick one from the class skill list from any of their classes (e.g. if you're a multiclassed Fighter/Wizard then you can pick from either of their skill lists).
• Skill Focus is a feat that can be picked for any of your Trained skills.
• Skill Training and Skill Focus are on every class's bonus feat list.
• Bonus feats are available at even levels.
• Feats are gained at 1st level, plus every third (like D&D)

One challenge with adapting this to D&D would be the extra feats that are available in SWSE, which are the mechanism for gaining extra Trained and Focus skills.

 

[masshysteria]

From what we've heard, I think this is very doable in D&D. After SWSE is released making the transition will be a little more clear cut.

Since Skill Focus and Skill Training are the only way to add or improve skills and are available at even levels in the class bonus feat list, each D&D class will need a similar list and way to add feats. Seeing SWSE feat list will make the construction of these a lot easier.

Multiclassing isn't a huge deal. Let's say you switch from fighter to wizard. All the wizard skills now become class skills so you can use the Skill Focus/Training feats to improve them. Since skills are calculated as 1/2 level + ability mod, you aren't totally screwed to begin with. Sure you aren't as skilled as a wizard that has spent time training the skill, but that is to be expected since you started as a fighter. If you keep leveling up as a wizard, in two more even levels you can be at the same place as a wizard that maxed out the skills.

 

[Spatzimaus]

I don't like it. At all. Yes, it's simpler, but that's not a good thing. I LIKE that right now, skills aren't an all-or-nothing thing. You can choose to be really good in some things, kinda good in others, mediocre in a few, and downright bad in others. This SW system really doesn't support that; the difference between someone who's great with a skill and someone who's horrible with it is only a matter of 5 points (10 if you take Skill Focus), and it really does penalize multiclassers heavily. If your class has several "essential" skills (rogues, spellcasters), and you didn't take that as your first-level class, you're just hosed compared to someone who reversed the order of levels.

Plus, the fact that you're totally doing away with skill points really, really hurts certain classes. Yes, there's a difference in how many Trained Skills they get at the start, but it's horribly abuseable. I take 1 level of Rogue, pick six or more of my class skills to be "Trained Skills", and then switch to something else (like Fighter). I'm now just as good in those skills as someone who stayed Rogue, and I always will be. This'd only work if you totally redesigned all the classes to be comparable (like in d20Modern), with roughly the same number of bonus Feats, talents, class skills, etc., so that there wasn't a substantial benefit from switching from a skill-based class to a non-skill class. And D&D just isn't structured that way.

That's not to say the D&D system doesn't need some improvement; I'm a big supporter of adding a few extra permanent class skills to characters based on their race or background, and adding a couple skill points that can only be spent on "nonessential" skills (Craft/Profession/Knowledge). But this is definitely not the way to do it, IMO.

 

[atomn]

Plus, the fact that you're totally doing away with skill points really, really hurts certain classes. Yes, there's a difference in how many Trained Skills they get at the start, but it's horribly abuseable. I take 1 level of Rogue, pick six or more of my class skills to be "Trained Skills", and then switch to something else (like Fighter). I'm now just as good in those skills as someone who stayed Rogue, and I always will be. This'd only work if you totally redesigned all the classes to be comparable (like in d20Modern), with roughly the same number of bonus Feats, talents, class skills, etc., so that there wasn't a substantial benefit from switching from a skill-based class to a non-skill class. And D&D just isn't structured that way.

Yeah, that's something that really jumped out at me. The Rogue will lose lots of its edge. I guess we'll just have to wait to see what the classes look like. Maybe they'll get rid of the skill expert class, like you suggest. Which will really disappoint me, I love being the skill guy.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Yeah, that's something that really jumped out at me. The Rogue will lose lots of its edge. I guess we'll just have to wait to see what the classes look like. Maybe they'll get rid of the skill expert class, like you suggest. Which will really disappoint me, I love being the skill guy.

The bright side is that with a condensed list and more skills available, more adventures will have skill checks since requiring them won't be a bottleneck.

 

[atomn]

The bright side is that with a condensed list and more skills available, more adventures will have skill checks since requiring them won't be a bottleneck.

I suppose, but to me skill checks shouldn't be prorated if the party don't know the skills. If the party doesn't have the ability to make the check, they should start taking the skill or figure out a way to get around it with what they have available.