Star wars - which version?

Crothian

First Post
d6 was a lot of fun and in that game Jedi felt like Jedi to more. They were more powerful then other characters but that reflected the source material well imo. But because of that it is not a game for everyone because some people need game balance to have fun and others don't.

Saga is a very good game. I had fun playing that as well (heck I had fun with the d20 and d20 revised, too). But these games do have a bit of a different feel. Space combat I think works better in these games then the old d6. I like the organization of the new books and the thoroughness they cover the topics.

I do have a complete collection of all of these games and let me tell you tracking down all those d6 books was not easy. :D
 

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Stormonu

Legend
In my experience, Saga supports a mixed group where everyone feels able to contribute, yet where Jedi can still feel cool.

Your bullet point is inaccurate for Saga. If you meant the previous d20 versions, your bullet point is on-target.

Cheers, -- N

Well, the brief encounter I had with SAGA (two campaigns that lasted about 3 sessions) seemed to indicated Jedi could easily get a super-high "Use the Force" skill that made it really easy to dominate encounters. My character, a Cerean, had a +12 UTF skill, Force Slam and Move Object. Most encounters I was involved with ended before others got to go - I either knocked the enemies silly or pinned them under crates and such. And that was just combat - out of combat I was a pretty good diplomat. If this doesn't bear out in the long run, I'll certainly concede the point.

I'd love to be able to run a game with one jedi (maybe two - master + apprentice) and the rest of the players being clones/support characters and it be balanced and fun for everyone -and I'd love to know which system would handle it the best.
 

Stormonu

Legend
d6 was a lot of fun and in that game Jedi felt like Jedi to more. They were more powerful then other characters but that reflected the source material well imo. But because of that it is not a game for everyone because some people need game balance to have fun and others don't.

We had a lot of fun with the d6 version, but I have to say our experience with Jedi in that game was much different. I played a bounty hunter and my friend played the jedi, and he constantly bemoaned how weak his character felt. I think near the end of the campaign, he finally got strong enough to manage to block one blaster bolt fired at him and I remember how elated he was when, during one scene, he was able to actually levitate himself up off the ground ("Hooray! No more levitating pencils!!!!"). It's been years, but that's been my memory of jedi in the d6 game.
 

pukunui

Legend
Well, the brief encounter I had with SAGA (two campaigns that lasted about 3 sessions) seemed to indicated Jedi could easily get a super-high "Use the Force" skill that made it really easy to dominate encounters. My character, a Cerean, had a +12 UTF skill, Force Slam and Move Object. Most encounters I was involved with ended before others got to go - I either knocked the enemies silly or pinned them under crates and such. And that was just combat - out of combat I was a pretty good diplomat. If this doesn't bear out in the long run, I'll certainly concede the point.
This issue is most easily solved by including some long-range encounters. Since Force powers are generally limited to 6 or 12 squares, this puts Force users at a disadvantage. So yeah, they rock at close range, but you can circumvent their overpoweredness at low levels by having the bad guys start off out of reach.

The other, less simple, solution is to change the way skill checks work when used against defenses. What I've done is implement a "skill attack" house rule that introduces a second modifier for use with all Deception, Persuasion and Use the Force skill checks targeting a defense score. This "skill attack" modifier uses a separate formula that scales along the same lines as a weapon attack modifier. This not only makes it so Force users and party frontmen are no longer overpowered at low levels, but also gives them a boost at high levels, where they would ordinarily start to fall behind.
 

Well, the brief encounter I had with SAGA (two campaigns that lasted about 3 sessions) seemed to indicated Jedi could easily get a super-high "Use the Force" skill that made it really easy to dominate encounters. My character, a Cerean, had a +12 UTF skill, Force Slam and Move Object. Most encounters I was involved with ended before others got to go - I either knocked the enemies silly or pinned them under crates and such. And that was just combat - out of combat I was a pretty good diplomat. If this doesn't bear out in the long run, I'll certainly concede the point.

To continue Pukunui's excellent points, the way Saga assigns and stats Force Powers means that your character had, via his single use of Force Slam, the rough equivalent of one grenade he could toss per combat (with the neat side effect of sometimes knocking people over, but a severe limitation on range). If he wanted more of them, he'd need to spend additional feats to pick up more uses of Force Slam, or spend talents on abilities that let you add another use to your suite, etc.

Since even fairly low-level stormtroopers come equipped with grenades, the non-Jedi characters could reasonably be expected to toss a few of their own in each battle, as well - assuming the enemy didn't throw them already!

Another issue that arises, especially in less-experienced groups, is allowing certain powers, especially Move Object, to do too much. Move Object is not general-purpose telekinesis. You can't use it, for example, to immobilize someone completely, or to pull a weapon out of their hand and shoot them with it. Your comment about "pinning people under crates" sounds like just such an occasion. Yes, it's possible to get people trapped under things, but there's rules on how to escape, and how big the object has to be in order for this to work, etc.

I'd love to be able to run a game with one jedi (maybe two - master + apprentice) and the rest of the players being clones/support characters and it be balanced and fun for everyone -and I'd love to know which system would handle it the best.

I don't think there is one, unless you set it up in an Ars Magica sort of troupe-based fashion, where everyone takes turns playing the "stars of the show."

The thing that I like about Saga is that it tried, however successfully or not one wants to argue, to make a 7th-level character roughly equivalent with a 7th-level character. Jedi, then, are just much more likely than soldiers or shopkeepers to make it to 7th-level - giving the power gaps we see in the movie. In a major-character-on-major-character fight, though (e.g., Obi-wan vs. Jango), there's no clearly superior combatant, merely different styles.

EDIT:

And, to address the OP's question, Saga's my favorite SW system. However, that has to be caveated with the admission that I've never really played d6 extensively, and the few times I did play I was "forced" to use the Archetype method of character generation (such that, for the longest time, I thought that's how the rules required you to create characters), so I don't have a good basis of comparison there. Saga beats the earlier d20 versions easily, however.
 
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ColonelHardisson

What? Me Worry?
Well that's nice, but you mis-read my post if you read "lead" as "led" and not "lead" as a title, as in "the LEADING designers" as in "head designers". :cool:

Oh?

They are no longer lead designers FOR A REASON, and that is because by eliminating fools like them lead to a more balanced and appropriate (and insanely fun) game system.

No matter how it's rationalized, that second "lead" is grammatically incorrect.
 
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Crothian

First Post
We had a lot of fun with the d6 version, but I have to say our experience with Jedi in that game was much different. I played a bounty hunter and my friend played the jedi, and he constantly bemoaned how weak his character felt. I think near the end of the campaign, he finally got strong enough to manage to block one blaster bolt fired at him and I remember how elated he was when, during one scene, he was able to actually levitate himself up off the ground ("Hooray! No more levitating pencils!!!!"). It's been years, but that's been my memory of jedi in the d6 game.

In our game that lasted over 2 years the Jedi was also very weak at the beginning. He had to buy a lot of basic force abilities that were expensive and not that effective then. But he grew in power and it was very cool to watch. In the end he was able to take on multiple opponents with ease and felt like a true Jedi to all of us.
 

masshysteria

Explorer
The other, less simple, solution is to change the way skill checks work when used against defenses. What I've done is implement a "skill attack" house rule that introduces a second modifier for use with all Deception, Persuasion and Use the Force skill checks targeting a defense score. This "skill attack" modifier uses a separate formula that scales along the same lines as a weapon attack modifier. This not only makes it so Force users and party frontmen are no longer overpowered at low levels, but also gives them a boost at high levels, where they would ordinarily start to fall behind.

This really is an interaction of skill focus and defenses. Skill focus grants a straight +5 to the skill, while defenses are modified by heroic level. This results in skills dominating at low levels, but falling behind at high levels. My fix and the one house rule I use is Skill Focus grants the full heroic level bonus to skills rather than the 1/2 heroic level. It's simple and has worked out pretty well so far.
 

TheAuldGrump

First Post
Engine wise, I liked D20 Revised best. Fluff, background, and scenario wise... West End's D6 supplements hands down. Add in the Star Wars Miniatures rules... and I would have to say go with West End.

If you don't want mass actions then go with D20 Revised, converting fluff, integrating the background, and running the adventures from D6 is pretty easy.

The Auld Grump
 

pukunui

Legend
This really is an interaction of skill focus and defenses. Skill focus grants a straight +5 to the skill, while defenses are modified by heroic level. This results in skills dominating at low levels, but falling behind at high levels.
Precisely. My fix tackles this underlying math so that skills vs defense progresses at the same rate as weapon attacks (which are still a bit slower than the rate at which defenses progress).

My fix and the one house rule I use is Skill Focus grants the full heroic level bonus to skills rather than the 1/2 heroic level. It's simple and has worked out pretty well so far.
I'm aware of that fix, but I don't feel it's enough. I also just don't like the idea of a scaling bonus. And also it affects various things like nonheroic droids and the like built with the minimum amount of levels and bonuses to be able to "take 10" and still do what they were built to do. With a scaling Skill Focus, you'd either have to give those droids and NPCs more levels or find some other way to compensate for their lower skill modifiers.
 

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