Stat Polarity and the new PHB2 feat

[Nymrohd]

Yes he is referring to Melee training.

 

[TheLordWinter]

Right now, are we sure that the "Melee Training" feat from the excerpt allows you to change your melee basic attack to any ability score? I checked the feat excerpt and all I saw was it saying "Change ability used for melee basic weapon attacks." That looks to me like it could be a bit misleading - what if it simply lets you use Dex. instead of Str?

While I've been digging the 4th edition notion of using the ability score to attack that makes sense for class powers, it's a bit tougher to wrap my mind around the dwarf warlock who hits people with a dagger based on how tough and hardy he is.

 

[77IM]

I've been thinking about allowing attack ability switcheroo for free for everyone all the time.

Basically, you can use any of your class's key abilities for any attack roll (but NOT for damage, secondary power effects, defenses, or skills). So, if you're willing to give up damage, you could play a high-Dex, high-Wis, low-Int wizard who still has a decent chance to hit, for example. The goal of this rule is to reduce dependence on the primary ability so that the system doesn't force everyone to min-max their primary ability, allowing for a wider variety of characters and making it easier to build characters based on role-playing concept.

If the flavor bothers you, you can always rename it:
"Each character has a combat modifier which is equal to the modifier of their highest key ability score. If their ability score increases, the combat modifier increases with it."

-- 77IM

 

[Irda Ranger]

This might be a good idea to do with defenses too.

Or, it might not. I think Defenses are fine. With the RAW "best of two" rule for the Defenses you already have very little MAD. Your suggestion goes straight into SAD territory.

I think the Melee Training feat actually is "just right." That way you can have a Con-related build (even if it's just tertiary for the HP) without having to put resources into Str too just for your basic attacks. MAD is thereby reduced. It needs nothing further.

 

[keterys]

Right now, are we sure that the "Melee Training" feat from the excerpt allows you to change your melee basic attack to any ability score?

Yes, someone leaked the feat on rpg.net from the PHB2 (I believe they actually put a pic of it up on flickr, even).

It's basically just 'Intelligent Blademaster' but works for everyone.

I prefer the idea of "Reaper's Touch" letting the warlock use Eldritch Blast as a melee basic attack instead of Melee Training for Con, anyhow

 

[Garthanos]

Yes, someone leaked the feat on rpg.net from the PHB2 (I believe they actually put a pic of it up on flickr, even).

It's basically just 'Intelligent Blademaster' but works for everyone.

I prefer the idea of "Reaper's Touch" letting the warlock use Eldritch Blast as a melee basic attack instead of Melee Training for Con, anyhow

I agree here, Constitution is indeed one I would rather not see but an exception to the rule.

I can pretty much rationalize most attributes
accuracy of movement(dexterity)
perception and reading your foe(wisdom)
quickness of thought, prediction and understanding of patterns (intelligence)

In some cases it only makes sense to me within the context of the classes ...a paladin (for him it represents divine guidance) has something special going on that enables "charisma" where as it doesn't jive for some others

 

[Sadrik]

With the RAW "best of two" rule for the Defenses you already have very little MAD. Your suggestion goes straight into SAD territory.

I don't agree by RAW it is MAD, right now the game makes severally gamey decisions for you. It says, "If you want to have a good Reflexes/AC defense you either have to have INT or DEX - having both doesn't help." Having both actually penalizes you because you are doubling up your stat points in an area that does not help you and takes away stats that could have improved one of the other stat polarities. So you have MAD in the three stat polarities.

Saying that my suggestion is SAD is wrong too, because you have six stats and one of them is going to be an 18 or 20 and that will be placed in one of the defenses. It is not possible to not apply a stat to a defense by RAW. The same here, except that the defenses are being applied to your best three stats instead of three artificial pairings . So this is no more SAD than the standard rules, it simply lets the player decide on their defense.

Suppose the character wants to be a smart and quick rogue.

RAW example:
10 STR \
11 CON - FORT
16 DEX \
16 INT - REF
8 WIS \
13 CHA - WILL

FORT +0
REF +3
WILL +1
This is inherently sub-optimal the 16 INT should have gone into one of the FORT stats to maximize the stats.

The suggestion here:
10 STR
11 CON
16 DEX - FORT
16 INT - REF
8 WIS
13 CHA - WILL

FORT +3
REF +3
WILL +1
This is more optimal and it does not artificially place restrictions on initial stat placement.

 

[Garthanos]

. So this is no more SAD than the standard rules, it simply lets the player decide on their defense.

SAD, for anyone who missed it is when you get tied down to only a specific or even set of narrowly defined abilities to be effective for an archetype. Sadrik's idea is in fact an ANTI-SAD, because the ability is not bound to be the same one for every character (thanks for the Intelligent Rogue example)

However I feel there is a baby in the bath water...if you made it as an across the board free feat... for one I like the defensive pairings they make sense to me and while other abilities can be turned to defense or offense as I have myself argued ... the attributes pair chosen currently do imply something about the nature of the attacks launched. In other words it could be cool and in keeping with the games style but I think it needs that feat cost in there to show this adaptability is special.

 

[Sadrik]

I like the defensive pairings they make sense to me ... the attributes pair chosen currently do imply something about the nature of the attacks launched.

Reading many books and being very knowledgeable allows you to dodge sword swings. In this case the pen is more defensive than the sword.
Able to lift 1,000s of pounds grants the uncanny ability to resist being polymorphed or catching contagion.
The abilities are their to fulfill rules requirements not to make have a realistic take on how to defend the nature of an attack.

In other words it could be cool and in keeping with the games style but I think it needs that feat cost in there to show this adaptability is special.

I kind of agree. With the added caveat of the Defenses begin with their more natural place holders - CON = FORT, DEX = REF/AC, WIS = WILL

To go off on a purely hypothetical idea- people have been making the argument that attacks should be stripped of a stat and made a simple function of level + some inborn scalable bonus. The same could be said with this too. Why not simply have a "DEF" stat? based on 4 + 1/2 level + situational class and racial bonuses.

 

[Garthanos]

Reading many books and being very knowledgeable allows you to dodge sword swings. In this case the pen is more defensive than the sword.

Actually an ability involving pattern recognition and predictive comprehension allows you to better predict where the next attack is likely to be coming from and also points to more decisive choices about movement.. Intelligence is analysis of the patterns and the speed of doing so.... and is not in the slightest related to how many books you have consumed...
(But it does relate to the manner in which you understand those books and often connected with the ability to snag technical info in them as opposed to social info in them or ethical implications.)

How in hell strength on the other hand is going to defend against psychic attack I will never know... hand waving hand waving ... well thats just magic it doesnt need to make sense does it? ick.

OK strength does allow one to move ones body "faster" in a burst sort of fashion its the reason it can make sense for attacking with a sword... and could be used for sort of last minute movement... which might be instinctual like muscle memory and get you out of the way of any attack which is terrestrial in speed.