Taking the 4e plunge as a DM. Any advice?

[WinnipegDragon]

My group is finally taking the plunge and we are starting with Keep on the Shadowfell this Friday. Assuming all is well, we will run the whole series up to 30th.

There has been some resistance to this in the group, although we did try a vary simple two-encounter module a few months back to get a taste of it. I think that what finally kicked us over the edge was just 3.5e burnout. I hope 4e will be different enough to alleviate that.

Anyhow, as a first time 4e DM, what is the best piece of advice you could offer? Any pitfalls in the system I should be aware of? Are these modules a good introduction?

I know this is an open ended question, but I like to be as prepared as possible, and I always welcome the advice and opinions of those with more experience.

Thanks!

 

[Jack99]

Unless you are a huge fan of hack and slash and huge dungeons, dont run the H-P-E series as they are.

In short, H1 is meh, H2 is okay, H3 is meh, P1 is quite good, P2 is awesome, P3 is so-so and E1 is meh too. You do not have to look for for more information.

When that is said, with some work, they can all be quite good I think (although I am not sure about H3, but YMMV).

Cheers, and good luck.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I hope someone less lazy than me can point you to the various Keep on the Shadowfell related threads. There has been a lot of customzing and homebrewing going on to make the adventure better, along with general advice for DMs on running 4E.

 

[WinnipegDragon]

I guess I should be less lazy in searching for it

I know that the modules will be kind of meh but this is more of a 'learn the rules' time for us, so I can deal with it. I'm using pre-written only since my wife is expecting our second child in two months, so in order to keep some sort of 'game night' running, I can't be writing everything from scratch.

Are there other, better options for a largely pre-written campaign in 4e?

 

[ExploderWizard]

In regard to starting things off with out-of-the-box KOTS as a 1st adventure, I will have to quote the president of the galaxy:

" GET OUT OF THERE!!.............I DON'T WANT AN INCIDENT"

This module as written, combined with a DM that wasn't experienced enought to make adjustments almost killed 4E for us. If you have any players that are doubtful about 4E at all it could end up sending them screaming back to 3.5. ( It sent me back to wanting Moldvay Basic but then again, so did 3E)

Please follow the advice given here and elsewhere about how to modify and trim this adventure if you are at all interested in moving to 4E.

 

[Dragonbait]

the Keep on the Shadowfell is pure dungeon. You'll want to spice things up.

On a more general note: If your group does not like the grind (long, drawn-out encounters that take over an hour to complete) then I'd say:

Avoid using Soldier-type monsters in large quantities unless they are several levels lower to your PC. Soldiers have high defenses, meaning the PCs will miss a LOT, taking up to twice as long to complete an encounter compared to encounters with other types of monsters. It may seem amusing at first, but can get very tiresome when you have spent 3 hours on 2 encounters because they are full of soldier monsters. If the soldiers are higher level than the PCs, too, this will add to their frustration because the defense numbers are rather significant*.

Of course, if your group enjoys long, drawn-own combat with very little tactics involved then by all means use soldiers and monsters that are much higher level than the PCs.

*I used a pre-made adventure where the PCs had to fight 2 soldiers that were 2 levels higher than them, and 2 artillery monsters equal to their level. In the end, the soldiers took 85 minutes to defeat simply because the characters missed their defenses (lowest defense was 21, the others were 23+) on most attacks.

 

[armorclass10]

I think the biggest adjustments that need to be made by a DM running 4e is organization....lots of status effects to keep track of from time to time.

i.e. stunned till end of next turn etc., now imagine these status effects with 5 players and 6 creatures.

IMO you need to really get your players to keep track of things with you also. Also what my group did was play our first session using the adventure in the back of the DMG, we ran it as a practice game....meaning any mistakes, deaths etc. would not count when it was time to go for real.

DMing 4e is a breeze compared to 3.x IMO BUT you need to have a system down to keep track of everything, once you do that you are golden. Oh and combat rules, read them again, cover, concealment, sifting etc. there are a few tweaks that a 3.x DM might miss first couple of times around.


Oh and the most important thing is have fun....have a blast throwing hoards of minions at the players and watch their reactions LOL.

 

[fanboy2000]

First, if it's not to late, I suggest that you actually start with Kobold Hall in the DMG. Even though it's a very short dungeon crawl, it's close to Fallcrest and what you can do is have the players spend some time in Fallcrest just prior, and just after the adventure and introduce the NPCs who will provide the PCs with plot hooks. IME, this goes a long way to making the adventure feel more than a dungeon crawl without having to change any of the encounters.

Second

[sblock]I suggest that you make Sir Keegan a ghost and have him wander around the keep at odd times, but doesn't interact with the PCs until area 8. You don't need to change his stats (or, at least, I wouldn't) but this gives the players something to think about prior to their meeting with him.[/sblock]

Third, I also suggest you give one of the players some kind of dream about the history of the keep. A cleric of Bahamut is a good choice. If you don't have one, I suggest choosing a PC where religion isn't important to the character, then seeing what they make of visions/dreams.

Fourth, if you can, check-out Thunderspire Labyrinth. Again, weave some of the NPCs who provide plot hooks into Keep on the Shadowfell, and that will make the transition between adventures more organic.

I've only made one change to Thunderspire, I added a small side encounter where the PCs found a book titled History or the Minotaurs of Saruun Khel among a few other books. This can provide the PCs with some of the backstory that otherwise, only you would know. Again, this goes a long way to making Thunderspire seem like more than a dungeon crawl.

 

[Rechan]

I just finished running KotS, so I can easily share my resources.

4e puts a lot of emphasis on the encounter. What's the terrain? How do the monsters work together? is the battle dragging? Here are some threads with advice towards that:

Avoiding Grind
Objective-based Encounters
Building Better Encounters
Intriguing Terrain Design.


KotS specific threads:

If you haven't all ready, WotC released a revised, downloadable version of KotS on their website, free. It has some revised monsters, rules, advice, etc.

KotS DM Discussion Thread; self explanatory.

Beefing up KotS's story; first encounter; basically, the first encounter and the second are so alike that it might annoy/bore your players, and there's no story to it. This is a brainstorming about that.

Surviving the Night skill challenge; a thread dealing with how to design a skill challenge for the first time the PCs sleep in the Keep. You know, it should be spooky and try to mess with them. I really enjoyed running this.

KotS Plotholes; Self explanatory.

This thread is me looking for help with a campaign specific element of how I was going to run Thunderspire, but there's some discussion of how me and another guy altered KotS's story.

Emerging Features in KotS; This is almost a campaign log of Lostsoul's game, but some interesting discussion.


I know Thunderspire is some time away, and you may not run it at all. But here's some resources:
Thunderspire discussion thread
Thunderspire DM aids


Want some monster from an older edition? Or just more? I got it for you.

The Monster Project; The Jester has tried to convert a lot of things from older editions/3e. In the last page or two, Keterys posts some revamped goblins; I used these a lot in KotS.
Ketery's original monsters; Keterys has made a ton of original stuff.
Undead undead undead; KotS has lots of undead. Here are some fan made ones over in the Houserules section.


Finally (I doubt you'll need them, but)
Foreshadowing P1 in H1/2; P1 being King of the Trollhaunt Warren
Trollhaunt tips.

 

[Pseudopsyche]

Are there other, better options for a largely pre-written campaign in 4e?

Unfortunately, I don't think 4E has found its killer AP yet. The series beginning with Keep on the Shadowfell is best suited to groups that enjoy dungeon crawls. They provide some opportunities for role-playing, such as the assorted NPCs in Winterhaven, but the modules don't provide much concrete guidance or support for it.

The Scales of War adventure path in Dungeon magazine has received mixed reviews, suffering largely from a lack of cohesion among some of its adventures. I've noticed that Goodman Games is marketing some of its Dungeon Crawl Classics modules as adventure paths, notably their Punjar Adventure Path and their Mountain King Adventure Path, but I don't know how good these are. I've heard that the early Dungeon Crawl Classics are adaptations of 3E modules, so the maps feel cramped for 4E combats.

Anyway, my suggestion would be to start with KotS but to urge yourself to add in role-playing and story elements liberally. Since none of the existing adventure paths are particularly tight plotwise, feel free to run whatever adventure inspires you, instead of necessarily the next adventure in the path you're on.

As for general advice, watch out for "the grind." Don't let combats drag on if your players aren't having fun any more. Monsters can run away or adopt desperate tactics or suddenly become minions once the outcome has been largely decided.

Good luck and don't hesitate to come back here if you encounter any problems you're not sure how to handle!