Teaching RPGs

[PJ Coffey]

To be honest, I’m not sure why anyone would think it would.

Because since 2017, I've seen a deskilled set of players on several occasions. Because I am happy to engage with and help people who are not confident with maths because they feel safe to talk to me.

I had north of 200 people walk through my doors from 2017 to 2020 and I've run a lot of AL as an organiser and GM. I'm very focused on rules as written and very patient to work with people to empower them as these are key values to me. So I've noticed these problems. I'm unsure what makes you think you would have noticed them or where your drawing the assertion that I think this is going to happen imminently, but I apologise for making you think, somehow, that I think this is going to happen immediately.

Maybe I should put a disclaimer up? If you're never going to play with someone you've never met before, 99% of things I say won't matter to you. Did you read the article or are you joining in the "Hasbro would never do a thing without public announcement that it is going to do a thing" / "It looks like Hasbro has a definite corporate duty to do a thing and that could be pretty bad actually" debate?

 

[dragoner]

They don't want/need grogs like me ...

Which looks like it fits in their marketing surveys they have released.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Because I am happy to engage with and help people who are not confident with maths because they feel safe to talk to me.

Problems with arithmetic would certainly contribute to having issues with participating in the TTRPG hobby. I’ve seen it in person as well.

But that’s an educational issue independent of whether the game is online or not, except in the obvious sense in which people are relying more on apps & programs to handle that aspect.

Innumeracy crops up all kinds of places. My dad tried to hire a retired Texas Instruments manager for some light clerical work, only to find they didn’t realize you could multiply, divide, and subtract on an”adding machine”, and didn’t survive the probationary period. (There were other, similar issues as well.)

 

[PJ Coffey]

Problems with arithmetic would certainly contribute to having issues with participating in the TTRPG hobby. I’ve seen it in person as well.

But that’s an educational issue independent of whether the game is online or not, except in the obvious sense in which people are relying more on apps & programs to handle that aspect.

Oh good you do understand why people are being deskilled and more people are entering the hobby through online only.

I won't speculate as to why, as a I am based in the UK and the respective world rankings of the US and the UK are readily obtainable online.

But these people do exist and helping them make the jump to other games, also helps keep the TTRPG market going.

Again, I regard it as obvious that:

1. RPG groups are social groups
and
2. games that alienate one or more user within a group will not do as well as ones where no users are alienated because this risks splitting the social group
(E.g. put off by bad user interface design, such as bad character sheets.)

See the OP?

Do I need to quote a source for that statement as well? Perhaps a paper like "Groups don't tend to move to games which parts of that group dislike" from the International Journal of Ludology?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Oh good you do understand why people are being deskilled and more people are entering the hobby through online only.

I won't speculate as to why, as a I am based in the UK and the respective world rankings of the US and the UK are readily obtainable online.

But these people do exist and helping them make the jump to other games, also helps keep the TTRPG market going.

Cause and correlation aren’t the same thing, though. I’m not sure “being deskilled” is what is driving people to online role playing as opposed to participating in TTRPGs in person.

I’m thinking the ease of simply pushing buttons & getting enjoyable results- with no books to read, no rules to master, minimal math use required, etc.- is sufficient to explain the preference for certain online RPGs without a presumption that a larger percentage of new gamers lack certain knowledge or skills needed for TTRPGs.

It could be that more innumerate people are trying RPGs because more people are trying RPGs in general.

2. games that alienate one or more user within a group will not do as well as ones where no users are alienated because this risks splitting the social group
(E.g. put off by bad user interface design, such as bad character sheets.)

I would propose that it is probably impossible to avoid alienating everyone within a game group to some extent with any game.

I’ve played in at least 100 different RPG systems since 1977, with individuals in 5 cities in 3 different states. I can’t think of a single game in which everyone was happy with the system. (At least one GM I know killed a series of campaigns because HE didn’t like the systems he chose to run them.) Some played in systems they disliked nonetheless because of their valuation of the social interactions you pointed out. (In my case, it was GURPS.)

I’ve seen several campaigns die stillborn because too few people were interested in using a particular system- some were my own. Some were major systems, some weren’t. Some were crunchy, some were relatively streamlined.

I know gamers who absolutely refuse to RP online, despite having the resources so to do, and a lack of an active game group.

I’m not sure if alleviating mere innumeracy is sufficient to sway large numbers people to online gaming.

See the OP?

Do I need to quote a source for that statement as well? Perhaps a paper like "Groups don't tend to move to games which parts of that group dislike" from the International Journal of Ludology?

Yes, I read your original post.

As noted, I’ve seen the dynamic of system preferences dictating what actually gets played. I’m sure most veteran gamers have. It’s not exactly a profound truth.

 

[PJ Coffey]

Cause and correlation aren’t the same thing, though.

Indeed no.

I’m not sure “being deskilled” is what is driving people to online role playing as opposed to participating in TTRPGs in person.

I’m thinking the ease of simply pushing buttons & getting enjoyable results- with no books to read, no rules to master, minimal math use required, etc.- is sufficient to explain the preference for certain online RPGs without a presumption that a larger percentage of new gamers lack certain knowledge or skills needed for TTRPGs.

OK, I think you're confusing what I'm talking about. I'm saying that you require a skill level to play an RPG. Especially one that goes beyond a very simple and robust core mechanic.

It could be that more innumerate people are trying RPGs because more people are trying RPGs in general.

Yes, that's right.

I would propose that it is probably impossible to avoid alienating everyone within a game group to some extent with any game.

I’ve played in at least 100 different RPG systems since 1977, with individuals in 5 cities in 3 different states. I can’t think of a single game in which everyone was happy with the system. (At least one GM I know killed a series of campaigns because HE didn’t like the systems he chose to run them.) Some played in systems they disliked nonetheless because of their valuation of the social interactions you pointed out. (In my case, it was GURPS.)

I’ve seen several campaigns die stillborn because too few people were interested in using a particular system- some were my own. Some were major systems, some weren’t. Some were crunchy, some were relatively streamlined.

I know gamers who absolutely refuse to RP online, despite having the resources so to do, and a lack of an active game group.

I’m not sure if alleviating mere innumeracy is sufficient to sway large numbers people to online gaming.

Yes, I read your original post.

As noted, I’ve seen the dynamic of system preferences dictating what actually gets played. I’m sure most veteran gamers have. It’s not exactly a profound truth.

Gaming is nowadays on a scale that none of us are used to or can easily comprehend.

If you agree that you can be a good roleplayer whether you use Dndbeyond or not, I agree.
If you agree that learning to drive an automatic doesn't make you a bad driver, I agree. (I drive a hybrid myself, they're all autos)
If you agree that it is a good idea for someone to learn "stick shift" to get a licence, I'm on the fence.

Why is that? Well, there's a lot of automakers nowadays and they have a lot of different vehicles. You won't lack choice. Maybe less, but you'll still have a choice.

If BMW was responsible for 99% of the automotive market and they quietly switched to automatic only, do you think that might affect the above?

If any other car that used "stick" also came with no added quality of life features, do you think that would make a dire situation for those automotive makers worse? If everyone drives stick, then you can switch to another manual gear transmission vehicle easily. If everyone drives automatics then minimising the shock in changing over and having to think about how it works needs to be accounted for.

As I wrote earlier in the thread:

1. DnD recruits players to TTRPGs.
2. Players learn the game.
3. Most stay there. That's fine. People can and should like things.
4. Some come out and try other TTRPGs. Awesome.
5. The market for TTRPGs has expanded beyond our ability to understand.
6. If we want to make sure that we continue to have fresh roleplayers than making the games easier to switch to is an important design consideration.

What is so controversial in these statements that you and other moderators are feeling the need to come and tell me I'm wrong? Is commenting on facts that apparently are "well known and uncontroversial" causing you to come and comment at me?

As a "schmoderator" will you tell me where the moderation guidelines are? I can't find them and I would quite like to know and yet, I keep being ignored in favour of snide comments and constant policing of my opinions.

 

[Umbran]

What is so controversial in these statements that you and other moderators are feeling the need to come and tell me I'm wrong?

Mod Note:
When we speak as moderators, you will see this red text. If it isn't in red text, we are speaking just as other posters.

Being a moderator has nothing to do with him disagreeing with you. You should stop tying our disagreement with your points to our status as moderators.

As a "schmoderator" will you tell me where the moderation guidelines are?

The Rules are linked at the bottom of every single forum page: Terms and rules.

 

[Umbran]

What is so controversial in these statements that you and other moderators are feeling the need to come and tell me I'm wrong?

My own disagreement with you earlier had nothing to do with these listed points. I was telling you you were wrong about "Hasbro moving to online only" which is not listed above. If the issue is with "facts", you might want to make sure you've got them straight.

Right now, most of that list is fine. But I find the idea that it is "beyond our ability to understand" the current market due to its size highly questionable. The current size of the market may be unprecedented, but it is smaller than the current market for, say milk, or cars, or movies. Unless your contention is that we are unable to understand the market for common household items, maybe this one point isn't particularly strong.

 

[PJ Coffey]

My own disagreement with you earlier had nothing to do with these listed points. I was telling you you were wrong about "Hasbro moving to online only" which is not listed above. If the issue is with "facts", you might want to make sure you've got them straight.

Right now, most of that list is fine. But I find the idea that it is "beyond our ability to understand" the current market due to its size highly questionable. The current size of the market may be unprecedented, but it is smaller than the current market for, say milk, or cars, or movies. Unless your contention is that we are unable to understand the market for common household items, maybe this one point isn't particularly strong.

What is the topic of this thread? Teaching RPGs. What is my post about? Teaching RPGs.

Do you have a positive opinion about the best way to teach new people TTRPGs? Do you have a methodology that you use to induct new people into TTRPGs? Do you have any tricks or thoughts about how to help people make the leap from one TTRPG to another? Do you have a cool story that you would like to share about those?

I really feel that this massive focus on whether DnDBeyond is or is not "online" and whether the focus by WoTC on their new online platform and their new licences etc is maybe not the topic of the thread? If I wanted to talk about those, I'd write 1500 words on them.

 

[Umbran]

I really feel that this massive focus on whether DnDBeyond is or is not "online" and whether the focus by WoTC on their new online platform and their new licences etc is maybe not the topic of the thread?

I'm sorry, but it was literally the first thing you said in the discussion. That led me to believe that it was important to your point. My apologies if that was incorrect, but maybe in the future, don't lead with things that aren't actually relevant to the discussion you want to have?

And, perhaps more important, two things:

1) Nobody really "owns" threads around here. Folks don't generally get to control what others talk about. Some topic drift happens. You may need to learn to ignore when folks say things you find irrelevant. Just not engaging is perfectly acceptable around here.
2) If someone seems to miss the point, it pays to continue to be polite to them.

All that said, then, to the point:

Sure, I've taught people to play. I don't have a "methodology" around it, though. Methodology is for when one is teaching people in large numbers, when what I've done is more artisanal, bespoke, small-batch RPG introductions, for which I find individualized approaches are more efficient/effective than general methodologies.

I find that teaching people to play their first RPG is notably different than teaching someone with some experience a new game. The latter seems to be made much, much easier when you give the new player one basic piece of information: "How to find the fun in this game."

It is a trick I learned at a house con that has a sort of tradition of presenting new games attendees may not have played before, for a single, three to four hour session. One of the GMs has a habit of letting us know where the fun bits in the system and its style sit. Set the expectations about what the system is, and isn't. Because nothing's worse for fun than missed-expectations.

F'rex: If the player has only played D&D, and tries to engage their tactical wargame chops in, say, Masks, which is about narrative developments, superhero story beats, and teen angst, they won't have a good time. So tell them it isn't about tactical wargames.