Teaching RPGs

[Arilyn]

nods I wouldn't go that far. But I believe that we can't cost along on keeping games inaccessible.

The absolute pushback against this concept and the realities of the situation is wild and quite funny to me TBPH.

It's true that many players prefer digital character sheets. I've seen no evidence, however, that pencil and paper sheets are difficult for these players to parse. Whether D&D will get so many players hooked on Beyond that they'll be even more reluctant to try other games remains to be seen.

It's an interesting discussion, but your tone in this thread has been turning me off. I almost skipped posting because of it. A little puzzled, as I enjoy your podcast with Morrus, and these comments here don't sound like you.

 

[PJ Coffey]

It's true that many players prefer digital character sheets. I've seen no evidence, however, that pencil and paper sheets are difficult for these players to parse. Whether D&D will get so many players hooked on Beyond that they'll be even more reluctant to try other games remains to be seen.

It's an interesting discussion, but your tone in this thread has been turning me off. I almost skipped posting because of it. A little puzzled, as I enjoy your podcast with Morrus, and these comments here don't sound like you.

I'm not being harassed by a member of the moderation team calling me a liar on the podcast. I am taken at my word as a roleplaying game club organiser, game designer, publisher and, broadcaster/journalist of what? 4/5 years? So when I say a thing, I may indulge in a touch of hyperbole, but the people I'm speaking to are also up to speed on the news and can see the direction of travel.

I guess I'm also unaccustomed to people who are so... trusting? Of megacorporations. That is just so strange to me that I am actually finding it quite funny.

This thread has been me, being myself, saying "Hey we should probably try and make roleplaying games easier to play!" And then being told repeatedly that I'm a fantasist liar who doesn't know what I'm talking about. :-? So I suppose I'm probably being more defensive and sarcastic then I am there.

Anyway, thank you for listening, I hope you continue to enjoy our show.

 

[soviet]

I'm not being harassed by a member of the moderation team calling me a liar on the podcast. I am taken at my word as a roleplaying game club organiser, game designer, publisher and, broadcaster/journalist of what? 4/5 years? So when I say a thing, I may indulge in a touch of hyperbole, but the people I'm speaking to are also up to speed on the news and can see the direction of travel.

I guess I'm also unaccustomed to people who are so... trusting? Of megacorporations. That is just so strange to me that I am actually finding it quite funny.

This thread has been me, being myself, saying "Hey we should probably try and make roleplaying games easier to play!" And then being told repeatedly that I'm a fantasist liar who doesn't know what I'm talking about. :-? So I suppose I'm probably being more defensive and sarcastic then I am there.

Anyway, thank you for listening, I hope you continue to enjoy our show.

Please take this in the spirit in which it is meant, but you presented what appears to be a fantastical conspiracy theory that D&D is moving to be online only without evidence, and when challenged you've taken it as an attack on your personal honesty, relied on claims of insider knowledge from a short period of being in the industry, and accused your doubters of being too trusting of corporations. Rather than, you know, providing evidence.

 

[soviet]

Personally RPGs are one part of my life that's stayed non-digital and I'd like to keep it that way. I have zero interest in any online tools as a gamer or (occasional) publisher.

 

[PJ Coffey]

Please take this in the spirit in which it is meant, but you presented what appears to be a fantastical conspiracy theory that D&D is moving to be online only without evidence, and when challenged you've taken it as an attack on your personal honesty, relied on claims of insider knowledge from a short period of being in the industry, and accused your doubters of being too trusting of corporations. Rather than, you know, providing evidence.

Yikes. I mean... I really don't know how you see it as a conspiracy theory.

My issues have been being told that:

• I know nothing about corporations
• I haven't seen people who can't play games without DnDBeyond

I certainly am not claiming "Insider knowledge" that's wild.

How can I provide evidence that DnD is moving to a walled garden? Well, apparently if a corporation doesn't tell you it's doing something than apparently it isn't doing that?

There is no standard of proof I can provide other than their actions and a fairly basic understanding of a) corporations and b) Wotcs past history. I mean... it's pretty obvious isn't it?

 

[PJ Coffey]

There is no standard of proof I can provide other than their actions and a fairly basic understanding of a) corporations and b) Wotcs past history. I mean... it's pretty obvious isn't it?

I just wanted to talk about how to make it easier to get into RPGs something which I'm pretty good at. Like, cool character sheet that works a lot better than anything else out there. Problems with the design of current ones.

And instead I'm defending an uncontroversial position that companies will maximise profits as though that's in doubt? That the margins on paper are awful, that the margins on digital are amazing. That there's been a massive explosion in RPG gamers driven by D&D. That D&D Beyond is wildly popular.

This has just been repeatedly in my face for years now. The obvious move is to keep your audience and not share the money. Apple looks after its customers and makes their lives as easy as possible. Which is a good thing! But in doing so, this increases the costs of going elsewhere.

As a corporation, if you can lock in customers, then your duty to your shareholders is to do so. If Hasbro was not looking at customer retention then they would be derelict in their duty! They would be terrible at their jobs!

If Hasbro was not looking at how to increase their profit margins with digital sales and digital only distribution then they would be failing to pick up low hanging fruit! I mean, it's just common sense and their duty to do this.

I don't think they "want to destroy the RPG" industry. Hahaha! I'm as relevant to Hasbro as you reading this. I'm not relevant at all! The whole earnings of the TTRPG industry combined isn't even a blip to them at this point!

1 million seconds is about 12 days.
1 billion seconds is about 31 years.

Translate that to dollars.

No. I'm saying that we're like a coracle dodging a ferry, Hasbro, acting as is fit, proper and legally required, will, by accident, and with no malice at all, unintentionally break the feeder chain that supplies the rest of the industry with new customers. That's literally not their problem!

Hasbro does not owe us anything. Hasbro executives owes their duty to its shareholders. Expecting them to do anything less seems like wishful thinking. This is just obvious isn't it?

I'm also saying, that teaching new players a game is easier with a sensible character sheet but that's clearly irrelevant at this point. LOL.

 

[MGibster]

I also believe that Hasbro is trying to get more people to play on-line, and trying to capture that sweet, sweet recurring subscription revenue in D&D Beyond.

Finally, I have my own concerns that some of the next release's rules are shaded toward the direction of making the game easier for on-line play and VTTs, as opposed to being good in-and-of-themselves.

The weird thing is that I don't think anyone disagrees with this assessment, only what it means for face-to-face gaming. I'm of the opinion that face-to-face gaming isn't going anywhere for a while, perhaps not ever, but WotC is going to do their best to make players reliant on D&D Beyond or their VTT. They're going to want everyone at the table to be plugged into Beyond while they're playing. If things look promising, D&D will turn into a game where you're expected to be connected online to play even if it's just through your mobile device.

 

[Umbran]

... but WotC is going to do their best to make players reliant on D&D Beyond or their VTT.

What, in all the playtest material we have seen, looks like it makes anyone reliant on D&D Beyond?

Because, if it isn't much... their "best" is weak sauce that you don't have to worry about.

 

[MGibster]

What, in all the playtest material we have seen, looks like it makes anyone reliant on D&D Beyond?

I disemboweled a hooked horror which allowed me to cast divination. Or maybe I can just read the tea leaves? We have some former Microsoft executives who came in talking about undermonetization. Why would WotC bring in former Miscrosoft executives if they weren't trying to turn D&D customers into recurrent spenders via digital means? And more recently we had Chris Cooks who said, "The underlying thesis of our D&D business was all about the digital."

Look, I'm not arguing that WotC is going to send Pinkertons to your house to knock your D&D books out of your hands. But they're attempting to create their own little walled garden where they can harvest recurrent spenders on a regular basis. And that means pushing as many people as possible to a subscription model. If you disagree, okay, but it's not like I'm crazy for thinking that's what WotC is trying to do.

 

[PJ Coffey]

I disemboweled a hooked horror which allowed me to cast divination. Or maybe I can just read the tea leaves? We have some former Microsoft executives who came in talking about undermonetization. Why would WotC bring in former Miscrosoft executives if they weren't trying to turn D&D customers into recurrent spenders via digital means? And more recently we had Chris Cooks who said, "The underlying thesis of our D&D business was all about the digital."

Look, I'm not arguing that WotC is going to send Pinkertons to your house to knock your D&D books out of your hands. But they're attempting to create their own little walled garden where they can harvest recurrent spenders on a regular basis. And that means pushing as many people as possible to a subscription model. If you disagree, okay, but it's not like I'm crazy for thinking that's what WotC is trying to do.

Thank you.

To answer your earlier point, my understanding of the traditional feed-in mechanism of new players to TTRPGs is that most come in from D&D. If you've never played D&D, that's very cool but is a minority experience.

That is they learn the general experience of a roleplaying game, that there is a character sheet, that there are rules, that dice (a randomisation mechanic exists).

The massive increase in player base should have a massive increase of non D&D TTRPG. However, as is very obvious to people, like me, who play with players new to the hobby, the skills of parsing and playing a game, rather than tapping on the part of the sheet the GM tells you, aren't being developed.

Again, this isn't moustache twirling evil. This is an unintended (*kinda) consequence of Hasbro improving the play experience of their product. It's MUCH easier to run and play D&D using beyond. Trivial. That's the biggest reason for not switching out for many groups I've talked to about A5e, which is the same game, and where the difference is? No app.

So, new players who haven't played D&D through their app, people who struggle with maths, younger players, and people looking for an "out ramp" all benefit from a culture of good user interface design, and a willingness and interest in making games easy to teach. And these groups are essential as some people find themselves aging out of the hobby or losing their games because the pool of people who know how to play anything but D&D shrinks (relatively speaking.)

Start thinking about change now is easier than in 5 years time. None of this requires "Insider knowledge" or "specialist insight" or even "unique takes". It's all readily available knowledge which I see every week.

TL;DR:

So, if you can develop an app for your fave game do so.

If you can't, work out how to make the game easier to play for absolute novices. I can't develop an app.