The power of a curse

[scott2978]

Greenfield, in this case you clearly didn't do your research. Unless I'm reading it wrong, a human could not use Alter Self to become an Avariel, because Avariel are Fey, not Humanoids. And if you are already a fey then what's the big deal about changing into another one? Similarly, you could not change into an aquatic elf, or a troglodite, since neither are Humanoids. Plus, you do not gain any of the supernatural, spell-like or extraordinary special abilities of the new form either. And you can't change into anything more than one size difference from your natural form and nothing with more hit dice than your caster level with a MAX set at 5hd. Given the restrictions on the Level 2 spell, I don't agree that it's as powerful as you think.

So go ahead and let your half dragon PC Alter Self into a Medium size 5HD dragon with no breath weapon, no DR, no SR, no Darkvision, no frightful presence, etc etc.

 

[scott2978]

I should add that although Greenfield doesn't know what Alter Self does, he is still right that a ring of alter self is not really a "cursed" item.

However, it's unclear whether the OP was talking about his friend making an item that is actually exploiting a curse for his own benefit, or making an item that curses himself to an everchanging form. A ring of Alter Self is certainly not a curse unless you make it hard to remove, and remove the wearer's ability to control their form.

Exploiting the rules for personal gain should get a DM veto, but giving yourself an item with an interesting curse might even be worth bonus xp. I'd certainly consider it if one of my players did that.

 

[Greenfield]

First, let's review the spell:

Alter Self
Transmutation
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level.
You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.
You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).
You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.
If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.
You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two weapon attacks) than normal.
You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.
You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.
You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.
When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.

I suggest that you look up the three creatures in question. All are Humanoid.

Aquatic Elf
Also called sea elves, these creatures are waterbreathing cousins to land-dwelling elves.
Aquatic elves fight underwater with tridents, spears, and nets.
Aquatic Elf Traits (Ex): These traits are in addition to the high elf traits, except where noted.
— +2 Dexterity, –2 Intelligence. These adjustments replace the high elf ’s ability score adjustments.
—An aquatic elf has the aquatic subtype.
—An aquatic elf has a swim speed of 40 feet.
—Gills: Aquatic elves can survive out of the water for 1 hour per point of Constitution (after that, refer to the suffocation
rules).
—Superior Low-Light Vision: Aquatic elves can see four times as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and
similar conditions of low illumination. This trait replaces the high elf ’s low-light vision.
—Favored Class: Fighter. This trait replaces the high elf ’s favored class.

TROGLODYTE
Medium Humanoid (Reptilian)
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp)
Initiative: –1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (–1 Dex, +6 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+1
Attack: Club +1 melee (1d6) or claw +1 melee (1d4) or
javelin +1 ranged (1d6)
Full Attack: Club +1 melee (1d6) and claw –1 melee (1d4) and
bite –1 melee (1d4); or 2 claws +1 melee (1d4)
and bite –1 melee (1d4); or javelin +1 ranged
(1d6)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Stench
Special Qualities: Darkvision 90 ft.
Saves: Fort +5, Ref –1, Will +0
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 9, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 10
Skills: Hide +5*, Listen +3
Feats: MultiattackB, Weapon Focus (javelin)
Environment: Underground
Organization: Clutch (2–5), squad (6–11 plus 1–2 monitor
lizards), or band (20–80 plus 20% noncombatants
plus 3–13 monitor lizards)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: 50% coins; 50% goods; 50% items
Alignment: Usually chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +2
A troglodyte stands about 5 feet tall and weighs about 150 pounds.
Troglodytes speak Draconic.

Note that the Natural Armor is not a supernatural effect, and is one of the things you specifically pick up from the new form.

Avarial isn't listed in the SRD, but like other Elves, it's Humanoid, not Fey. The background story on them links them more to a Celestial bloodline than Fairies.

Take a look at the Humanoid list some time. It's surprising what you can get from Alter Self.

 

[Jack Simth]

The problem is your player CANT simply Wish for such a ring/effect directly because presumably the spell(Wish) is limited to some unstated fraction of the 25,000gp value of non-magical items allowed by RAW and Polymorph is worth at LEAST 56,000gp using the crafting guidelines.

Actually, no. Magic items have their own clause in Wish:

Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.

- but there's a drawback:

When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

Anyway there is a burning question I was wondering about cursed items

If a player wanted to make a magicaly cursed item using wish (not totaly unreasonable) and further more wanted to use that item, how would you begin to calculate the XP cost if the curse is "Player changes race" curse.

By way of pointing out that the table doesn't say it changes to a specific race. Your race changes... at 'random' as chosen by the DM to be extremely inconvenient at the time (in a city of Elves? You're now an uncouth dwarf. In a city of dwarves? You're now a pansy elf. In amongst gnomes? You're now a smelly kobold. In amongst kobolds? You're now a tasty gnome. And so on.

As to the XP cost of a Cursed item?

If I'm DMing, I'm of the opinion that most of the table-curses, curses, limitations, and drawbacks on items are deliberate security features or traps for a target. They reduce what you can sell the item for, sure (harder to find a buyer to whom the curse / limitation / drawback will not be a bother. If you're selling to a merchant, this means they have to look harder to find a 'safe' buyer. If you're selling to an individual, ), but they don't give a discount during crafting. They cost about the same as 'normal' items.

 

[Sekhmet]

Greenfield is right, all three of his suggestions (Avariel, Aquatic Elf, and Trogolodyte) are humanoids and excellent (albeit very standard, because they are excellent) uses of Alter Self for your typical humanoid caster.
Yes, you do gain natural armor and movement modes when using Alter Self.

He was very apt in his description of some of the excellent things you can do with Alter Self, and having a permanent +6 natural armor, fly speed, swim speed, and burrow speed would make a very expensive magical item.

 

[jefgorbach]

@ Jack Simth – thanks, I was fairly certain the cost to Wish for magic items was specified someplace but wasn’t spotting it so second-guessed it was a house-rule.

James the Newbie – I’m Likely forgetting the finer details since away from notes, but the Simulacrum exploit makes finding “surplus” child’s play for someone capable of casting Wish because you simply specify the Wish drains any required xp requirements from your simulacrum(s); as each has an expendable pool of (its current xp – the minimum xp needed to reach its current level) per RAW.

The lycanthropic solution seems the simplest (with the added benefit of explaining how THAT curse originated) , obviously with the caveat becoming unique individuals (ie: named demons, the Tarrasque, etc) is –not- possible; even so limited, expect having to rebalance encounters on-the-fly whenever he changes race. Therefore it might be beneficial to limit the ring to those races with +LA equal-or-less than his default race. IE: He was born a Drow, so would be limited to those races with a +0 to +2LA.

However another thought might be having the Curse simply provide the Doppleganger(Change Self Supernatural Ability); although I’m uncertain how’d you would determine the corresponding Crafting price.

 

[scott2978]

Thanks for pointing out those are actually humanoids Greenfield, I wasn't sure. But that still doesn't make a ring of Alter Self overpowered. You mentioned using it to swim, fly and gain AC, but any 5th level wizard can already do all those things, plus he can cast Alter Self too! So it's probably not giving this character anything that he couldn't do already if he was a wizard, or a Bard or a Rogue with a scroll. /shrug Meh...

And a ring of Alter Self would not be very expensive. If it was on command and lasted continuously, it would cost just 18,000gp. (Spell level [2] x caster level [3] x 2000 x 1.5 for continuous effect that has a duration of 10 min/level = 18,000) One might argue that it doesn't fit body slot affinities, but since the DM is making it and not a player that hardly matters. In fact cost doesn't matter at all really.

If the DM thought it might be abused, it could be made with 3 charges per day that last 30 minutes, or just one charge per day that lasts 10 minutes, or some other suitable limitation.

Just to put this idea back into perspective, remember that someone earlier in the conversation mentioned a Ring of Shapechange LOL! Talk about overpowered!

I have to admit that the idea of a cursed item that changes your race is pretty interesting. Could make for some great role playing when the Rogue comes back to town from the Caves of Chaos... as a Troglodyte

 

[Omegaxicor]

I think what the original poster is asking is what an earlier poster identified, a cursed item that works differently to how it should can be turned to another use by an intelligent player, a ring that suppresses all magical abilities (supernatural and extraordinary) could be used to pass through a field that detects those to prevent dragons/mind flayer/etc from stealing the horde of treasure.

As for the specific question I am wondering this as well, if the player created a ring of...Warforged say, when he wears it he becomes a Warforged (if he is Human he loses a Feat, if he is a dwarf he loses stonecunning, etc...) but then he, being/knowing a Cleric of sufficient level, uses Remove Curse to take the item off when he needs his feat/ability more than his immunities or he needs healing...

If he had several rings and a wand of Remove Curse? how much would each Ring cost? It is still a curse because he loses his racial abilities in favour of those he gains, I question whether by becoming a dwarf he would gain Weapon Familiarity because it is a cultural trait rather than a racial one, but it is still a curse...

 

[scott2978]

In that situation, if the ring is really supposed to be a curse, then just make the race change permanent, and taking off the ring does nothing - once the curse has been bestown the ring becomes nonmagical. Sort of like an item of alignment change.

 

[Sekhmet]

Woopwoop.

The problem with "Wizard can already do all these things" is that even he can't do it all day, every day, as many times as he wanted, whenever he wanted.
Alter Self is one of the powerful spells that probably shouldn't appear on the 2nd level spell list (I'd bump it to 3rd), because it has so many uses that make other spells of around it's level almost useless.

It certainly deserves additional cost based on it's usefulness as an item.
Since it can replace an Amulet of Natural Armor +6 (68,000, to get +6, you'd need to be an 18th level caster), Boots of Fly (16,000), and a Ring of Improved Swimming (10,000), to name only three, and in only one slot! The cost of this Ring must be greater than at least it's most powerful use.