The power of a curse

[Greenfield]

Thanks for pointing out those are actually humanoids Greenfield, I wasn't sure. But that still doesn't make a ring of Alter Self overpowered. You mentioned using it to swim, fly and gain AC, but any 5th level wizard can already do all those things, plus he can cast Alter Self too! So it's probably not giving this character anything that he couldn't do already if he was a wizard, or a Bard or a Rogue with a scroll. /shrug Meh...

And a ring of Alter Self would not be very expensive. If it was on command and lasted continuously, it would cost just 18,000gp. (Spell level [2] x caster level [3] x 2000 x 1.5 for continuous effect that has a duration of 10 min/level = 18,000) One might argue that it doesn't fit body slot affinities, but since the DM is making it and not a player that hardly matters. In fact cost doesn't matter at all really.

If the DM thought it might be abused, it could be made with 3 charges per day that last 30 minutes, or just one charge per day that lasts 10 minutes, or some other suitable limitation.

Just to put this idea back into perspective, remember that someone earlier in the conversation mentioned a Ring of Shapechange LOL! Talk about overpowered!

I have to admit that the idea of a cursed item that changes your race is pretty interesting. Could make for some great role playing when the Rogue comes back to town from the Caves of Chaos... as a Troglodyte

There are more Humanoids that can be abused. According to one listing, there was a Large Naga with a constrict attack that was listed as a Humanoid. Shouldn't have been, but it was.

You mention a 5th level Wizard, probably in reference to Fly and Water Breathing. I don't think there's an arcane spell that grants +6 to Natural Armor, but I could be wrong.

Fly lasts for one minute per caster level. Alter Self lasts ten times longer, and is a lower level spell.

Water Breathing doesn't grant the swim speed that an Aquatic Elf gets.

And if you look at a Fly item, such as Boots, they have a very limited duration. (Three times a day, five minutes of flight.) To match the continuous ability of a Ring of Alter Self, you'd have to compare to Wings of Flying, which is over 50k.

And while you can justify a Ring of Alter Self as being cheap, you could justify a Ring of True Strike as being even cheaper. Oddly, though, no DM in his or her right mind would ever accept such an item at a mere 8,000 gp. (1st level spell times 1st level caster times 2000 for use activated times 4 for continuous.)

The other rule that gets so easily overlooked is the one that says to compare a proposed item to other items of similar power. Like I said, Wings of Flying are something like 54,000.

WOTC dropped pretty much all the shape changing spells, from Alter Self on up from their RPGA events because they're so open ended that there's hardly a way to include them without them being a window to abuse.

Suggesting Alter Self as a "curse" on an item?

I am reminded of a scene from "Fiddler on the Roof": The young Communist proclaims. "And I tell you that money is a curse!"

Reb. Tevia responds by raising his eyes and arms up to heaven in prayer. "May God so smite me! And may I never recover!"

That's the kind of "curse" being asked for here.

 

[Sekhmet]

I am reminded of a scene from "Fiddler on the Roof": The young Communist proclaims. "And I tell you that money is a curse!"

Reb. Tevia responds by raising his eyes and arms up to heaven in prayer. "May God so smite me! And may I never recover!"

Someone EXP Greenfield for me. I never seem to be able to.

 

[scott2978]

I'm not sure why Sekhmet and Greenfield seem to have a bad case of "selective attention disorder" whenever they read my posts, but don't overlook the rest of what I posted that specifically eliminates all of the arguments against this item, both as a nice magic item and as a nasty curse.

Can a ring of Alter Self be limited to once per day for ten minutes? Sure can, and I specifically said this in my previous post.

Can a cursed item be made permanant with removal of the ring not affecting the curse? Sure can, and this was also specifically mentioned in my previous post.

For anyone wants to test me on just how debilitating a cursed ring using Alter Self can be, and to bring this thread back on topic, I'll indulge with a few ideas. My first idea is that it changes you into the oldest, most decrepit looking, ugliest possible specimen of a common race, like human. Then you could add on Strength Dex and Con scores of 3. Maybe top it off with a healthy dose of "your gender changes randomly every ten minutes", or "when you are within 30 feet of an Orc, you change into the form of Elf most offensive to Orcs" or how about this for a coup de grace: "your form and physical attributes automatically change to the worst possible for any given situation". One final thought: since it's a curse, lets make sure we declare it a "special curse" per the Remove Curse spell so that Remove Curse doesn't work on it. I suppose I could have mercy on the poor victim and allow a RC from a caster if a certain level to work though.

Anyone still think this is a great boon that you hope you're never cured of?

No, didn't think so.

 

[Greenfield]

We were exploring the spell, and its implications in a ring.

Can a DM create an item that behaves any way they like? Absolutely.

Can a player? (Which was implied in the original post.) No.

The minimum caster level on Alter Self is 3rd, and while a crafter can create an item at a level below their own, they can't create it at a level below the minimum needed to cast the spell. So the shortest duration on a PC made Ring of Alter Self is 30 minutes, not 10.

Now, can the item be made painfully bad to use? Like I said, the DM can do anything they like. But Alter Self, by itself, doesn't alter physical stats at all. And the OP was talking about turning into the Tarrasque or Tiamat as a "curse". That's nothing like what you just described.

Then again, unless there's some version of the Chromatic Dragon that's 5 hit dice or less, you ain't getting there with Alter Self.

 

[scott2978]

Agree then.

A player could make the ring different from the exact wording of Alter Self though. Many magic items just use the spell as a basis for the effect like the ring of xray vision.

 

[Greenfield]

Yes and no.

First, anything a player wants to do in item crafting, including the recreation of a "standard" item, needs DM approval.

Second, I don't know of any sane DM that would allow a "curse" on an item to grant a huge power boost above and beyond what the spells involved should be able to do.

Third, the DM will set the price for any item made, cursed or not, based on it's over all power and utility.

For example, in a Dark Sun campaign, a Decanter of Endless Water is a source of endless wealth. It shouldn't be allowed, not at any price, even if it is a "standard" item, found in the DMG.

The OP made it clear that the goal was to get a discount for creating a "cursed" item, where the "curse" was that it gave the wearer godlike power.

Most of the rest of this discussion has been a prolonged ritualized casting of Dispel BS on that proposal.

If you want to argue that said proposal doesn't rate a Dispel BS, take it up with your DM. He/she is the one whose opinion actually counts. The only one whose opinion counts, in fact.

Now, curses aren't always bad in all situations.

Consider a Ring of Feather Falling that turns you into a feather until you reach the bottom of the fall.

Aside from being good for a laugh, it takes away all of the user's actions during that time, and probably makes them really really vulnerable. But maybe, once in a while, it's not a bad thing to be made small enough and light enough to pass through a grating, for example.

But over all, curses are supposed to be something that limits the use of an item, or imposes a penalty of some sort on the user.

Under that heading, yes you could create a "cursed" version of a Ring of Alter Self with the limitation/disadvantage of a short duration.

The base item, however, is still powerful far beyond the normal "caster level x spell level x 2000" formula, and should be priced accordingly, if it's to be allowed at all.

 

[Sekhmet]

More stuff.

The idea behind the ring was to have it's curse be the Alter Self/Race Change effect, not to have it's curse be cursed with additional curses that don't uncurse with Remove Curse (curse, curse, curse, curse, curse).

I agree that there are limitations that could make a Ring of Alter Self be perfectly fine. 3/day, 10mins/day split up however you like, or any number of duration/charge changes could make it a viable, somewhat cheap option.

When you present an idea, regardless of how solid some of it is, it will always be attacked at it's weakest point. In this case, the open ended nature of the intended effect.
Tacking on negative modifiers doesn't detract from the nature or usefulness of the item itself, which is what we were arguing was the problematic part of the Ring. At least, until your recent post where you argued that such an item, were it Cursed Cursed, would be fine.