D&D 5E The Problem With At Will Attack Granting

[mellored]

The attack could even be constructed in the gambit: attack bonus, dice, damage bonus - then the ally's weapon or cantrip just determines the damage type.

Balanceable to a higher/finer degree than called for in 5e, but does that make it better? Might be fun with a poor-combatant NPC, but wouldn't a player of a melee PC be happier to make his own attack, even if it made the gambit 'OP' by some dpr calculation?

"An ally can make an attack. If they hit, they deal 2d6+your Int modified damage instead of their normal damage. 1d8+int if it's a ranged attack."

.... maybe.

 

[MoonSong]

I could go on and on about the issues there but I'll tackle the biggest first.

1. You can put absolutely no investment into combat and you can cause as much damage as the most damaging player in the party.

It's still them rolling the dice and deciding which attack/cantrip to use

Sorcerers don't heal either plus you will want other abilities.

Late to the party and the third to say it, but yes Divine Soul can heal, in fact it is quite good at it if not the best at it - depending on how do you define "best" -

Right. I think all 4e Warlord fans liked the lazylord concept much more than the traditional hit things and help allies while doing so type. What I am trying to ask is did you like the lazylord better because it was stronger than the other warlords. That is, would you or anyone have even cared for it if it was weaker?

Well I like it because it is a non-combatant that yet contributes to combat.

Yeah, looking through it again I've started work on my own version, using the fighter and paladin (auras) as a base.

It's got me this so far:
Rallying Call is a Second Wind for others, Create Opening is an Action Surge for others, Coordinated Attack is an Extra Attack for others, and Push Through is an Indomitable for others.

Level Feature
1 Rallying Call
2 Create Opening (one use)
3 Watchman Path
4 ASI
5 Coordinated Attack
6 Aura
7 Watchman Path feature
8 ASI
9 Push Through (one use)
10 Aura
11 Watchman Path feature
12 ASI
13 Create Opening (two uses)
14 Push Through (two uses)
15 Watchman Path feature
16 ASI
17 Push Through (three uses)
18 Aura improvements
19 ASI
20

On hindsight I should have given them the mastermind's ability to use help as a bonus action and maybe some aura effects. But hey, in my defense it was an eleventh hour adaptation of an attempt to port the warlord to Labyrinth Lord some clunkiness was unavoidable.

 

[Yunru]

It's still them rolling the dice and deciding which attack/cantrip to use

Late to the party and the third to say it, but yes Divine Soul can heal, in fact it is quite good at it if not the best at it - depending on how do you define "best" -


Well I like it because it is a non-combatant that yet contributes to combat.



On hindsight I should have given them the mastermind's ability to use help as a bonus action and maybe some aura effects. But hey, in my defense it was an eleventh hour adaptation of an attempt to port the warlord to Labyrinth Lord some clunkiness was unavoidable.

Make no mistake, it's a great class. Also in your defense I don't think the mastermind was out when you made it.

 

[MechaPilot]

"I give up part of my turn so an ally can take one of a small selection of off-turn actions" (which should, because they're off-turn, require that ally to spend her reaction) is by no means a problem. Depending on the specifics of it, I'd let that mechanic in my game with no qualms about it breaking anything.

 

[FrogReaver]

"I give up part of my turn so an ally can take one of a small selection of off-turn actions" (which should, because they're off-turn, require that ally to spend her reaction) is by no means a problem. Depending on the specifics of it, I'd let that mechanic in my game with no qualms about it breaking anything.

What's the best weapon in the game? The rogue. When I wield him I do 11d6+5 damage on a single attack!!!!

 

[Zardnaar]

What's the best weapon in the game? The rogue. When I wield him I do 11d6+5 damage on a single attack!!!!

And that's the problem for an at will attack granting right there.

 

[MechaPilot]

What's the best weapon in the game? The rogue. When I wield him I do 11d6+5 damage on a single attack!!!!

A single attack that, if attack-granting is an ability that costs an action, consumes your ability to take an attack action and thus precludes your benefiting from the extra attack feature, or from taking bonus action attacks that require you to have taken the attack action. In other words, if granting an attack costs an action, you do so at the cost of all the attacks you'd ordinarily be able to make on your own turn, and the ally who makes it should likely have to spend a reaction to act off-turn. So you're getting one sneak attack enabled attack at the cost of all the attacks you could make and any other reactions your ally could make.

Also, you said 11d6+5. Presumably that's 10d6 from sneak attack, 1d6 from the weapon, and +5 from the rogue's ability modifier. In order for the rogue to have 10d6 sneak attack she must be like 19th level. Assuming the whole party is the same level, or within a level of each other, a warlord who gets extra attacks at the rate the fighter does would have 3 attacks per action by then. If the warlord were only interested in damage, let's say she picks a 2d6 damage weapon. So, that's 6d6+15 damage (three attacks each at 2d6+5). Using average die rolls (3.5 for each d6) that's only an 8 point difference, and that's without assuming GWM, Martial Adept or any other feats. It also assumes the conditions are right for the sneak attack class feature to apply to attacks against the target.

 

[MechaPilot]

And that's the problem for an at will attack granting right there.

You have yet to actually demonstrate that is a problem. Please do so. Please back up that assertion.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That's what I have.

Level 2 let's you help with 3d20 (elven accuracy). So a nice big bonus.
And at level 5, you get reroll failures as a reaction.

Bonus damage is a possibility too. Or possibly, rerolling damage.

Edit: Maximize damage seems good.

I'm not sure what you mean.
Got an example?

Not a fan of rerolling or maximizing damage as score concept feature. Rerolling will always feel less powerful than it is, and is less powerful than bonus damage, and maximizing is just...boring? People want to roll.

As for the legendary action thing, it’s just legendary actions, given to the warlord as a class feature, maybe X/long rest or short rest or whatever, and the warlord can let his allies do stuff using those legendary actions. They can be used during the warlord’s turn, or at the end of someone else’s turn, and there is a specific list of effects. Some are movement, some buff, one allows an attack, and some target multiple allies while some target just one. Capstone might be an ability that allows multiple allies to make an extra attack.

Some “gambits” could also be debuffs, of course.

 

[CapnZapp]

Its OP, I have seen the BM fighter around with a Rogue in the party and its a great trick, aciton surge for 3 attacks give 1 attack to the Rogue.

A dex based BM fighter (duelist) deals 1d8+7 damage (11.5 avg damage), they give one attack to the Rogue at level 8 for example 1d8+4d6+5 (23.5). Its a nice ability but its also not at will.

The Duelist style for example grants +2 damage, a level 8 cleric class feature grants a huge 1d8 (at level 8), thats an at will thing that doubles the damage (comapre with the crit thing of the 5E champion)

Replace the Rogue with a Ranger, 1d8+5+ 1d8+1d6 your are still getting an extra 8 points of damage out of it, and this is also missing out on things like the -5/+10 feats in an edition where the average AC in the MM is 14.5.

This also ignores the versatility of being able to switch the targets to use range/melee attacks and you can key it off the best stat of another PC (negating Clerics MAD downsides for example).

Its fairly close to the +10 damage part of the -5/+10 feats without the -5 part. Or Paladin smiting witout having to use level 1 spell slots. When you look at how much damage crits deal or class features deal the way at will attack granting is very very out of whack with other PHB abilities for dealing extra damage. Or how cantrips scale even.

If you compare it with extra damage and how it will be used in a real game of D&D its the best damage enabler in the game, its better than level 8 cleric abilities its better than a fighting style, its roughly equivalent to a Paladin using a level 1 spell slot to smite at will, its the situational advantage of the hunter ranger all the time. It worked in 4E because they had a basic attack and Rogue sneak attack only dealt an extra 2 dice of damage (and 4E critters had more HP).

If you allow it at all it should be dealing perhaps 1d8+3 damage roughly as that is roughly what a cleric or warlord would deal at level 1 and you still get the versatility of switching between ranged and melee or keying off the prime stat of another PC.

Clerics can situationally deal more damage using their spells of course, spiritual guardians comes to mind but once again that is a limited daily effect, I am only limiting WLs to short rest effects.

If its at will why not just have it grant an extra 1d8 (perhaps 1d10 be generous) that scales like a cantrip. You will more or less functionally have the same effect and it limits the brokenness of it. Similar concept (more damage), and it limits the abuse (like 4E did at least until essentials basic attack classes). It means you could have a lot more other abilites that you would associate with the WL.

It really does smack of one true wayisms, every other class got changed to fit the 5E design why should 4E get a free pass? Not that the loudest posters actually play 5E anyway. If you spent time designing a 4E retroclone instead of bleating about it on forums you could do whatever you liked with the WL.

Can you have a Warlord in 5E? Yes, can you have a fully functional 4E Warlord in 5E no for the same reason a fully functional 3.x CoDzilla is a stupid idea.

A long long post, so let me just say I'm completely fine with two characters doing Rogue-levels of damage rather than just one.

I am assuming the Warlord needs to expend his whole action. And that the Rogue needs to spend her reaction.

Absolutely no part of this seem OP to me. And believe me when I've seen OP...