The Readied Spell Abyss

[5ekyu]

So, i am interested in how you choose to play the following in your games.

A warrior and a cleric are in a room with two doors - east and west.
They hear approaching enemies.
They each ready...
Warrior readies bow to shoot first target thru the door.
Cleric readies Guiding bolt to shoot first one thru the door. this means the spell is CAST and "energy held" and being concentrated on.

(lets not argue how they knew the timing so they knew the door was just about to be opened or how it would have been smarter to have the warrior ready to shoot at the one the cleric shoots.)

Now is where the questions come up.

lets assume they were secretly being watched.
Would you allow someone observing either of them to make say an Insight" check to realize "their next move" and see that they are "readied" to shoot/attack someone coming thru the door if they saw the "readying being done? Would you allow it if the watcher saw them "while readied" but not when they "readied"?

that is general broader question of how perceivable you consider a ready action to be.

But now to the Readied spell abyss...

An observer seeing/perceiving guiding bolt cast as part of the ready clearly by RAW has a chance to see the casting and to identify the spell itself (XGtE for those who use it or whatever you use for counterspell.) In theory an observer could counterspell or use abilities/feats which allow reactions to spells being cast.

After the guiding bolt is released, it has a visible effect and also can be dispelled by dispel magic and depending on how much you rule is known about spells what spell is at work could be observed and determined by whatever means (likely an arcana check.)

But in between casting and releasing/takes effect there seems to be a "Ready Spell Abyss" where all we have is "concentration" and a very vague non-specific reference to "holding energy" where the main question is this - is that held energy readied spell thingy at all perceivable, dispellable, counterspellable or identifiable using XgtE or other means... or has it fallen off the weave into some unspecified abyss of rules omission?

So let me give you my own Gm rulings on this:
A readied action or at least that someone has a readied action is at very minumum detectable. with an insight check for "next move" because the subject has a clearly defined focus and intention Whether or not they can get the info without an insight check depends on the nature of the action readied and the degree of discernment is limited by the insight check - easy to see the focus is on the east door but not so much whether its "first guy thru" or what.

A readied spell's held energy has a visible/audible/perceivable effect *if* the actual spell effect has such. The energy is visible if and only if the result it would create is also. So, a suggestion spell held would not show any visible pulsing energy but an acid arrow or guiding bolt would.

A readied spell's "held energy" can be identified using an arcana check as detailed in XGtE and the usual rules *or* essentially the same way you would do it for counterspell purposes even if you were not opting to use the XGtE.) basically the "held energy" is as unique as the spell effect would be.

So by both of these i am *not* assuming the omission of info about the ready/energy status means it gets a free pass.

As for Dispel vs Counter - I rule it can be Dispelled while in a ready state but not counterspelled - because it specifically states casting has been done.

But, how have you ruled this or have you seen it ruled or if neither - how would you approach it?

 

[neogod22]

So, i am interested in how you choose to play the following in your games.

A warrior and a cleric are in a room with two doors - east and west.
They hear approaching enemies.
They each ready...
Warrior readies bow to shoot first target thru the door.
Cleric readies Guiding bolt to shoot first one thru the door. this means the spell is CAST and "energy held" and being concentrated on.

(lets not argue how they knew the timing so they knew the door was just about to be opened or how it would have been smarter to have the warrior ready to shoot at the one the cleric shoots.)

Now is where the questions come up.

lets assume they were secretly being watched.
Would you allow someone observing either of them to make say an Insight" check to realize "their next move" and see that they are "readied" to shoot/attack someone coming thru the door if they saw the "readying being done? Would you allow it if the watcher saw them "while readied" but not when they "readied"?

that is general broader question of how perceivable you consider a ready action to be.

But now to the Readied spell abyss...

An observer seeing/perceiving guiding bolt cast as part of the ready clearly by RAW has a chance to see the casting and to identify the spell itself (XGtE for those who use it or whatever you use for counterspell.) In theory an observer could counterspell or use abilities/feats which allow reactions to spells being cast.

After the guiding bolt is released, it has a visible effect and also can be dispelled by dispel magic and depending on how much you rule is known about spells what spell is at work could be observed and determined by whatever means (likely an arcana check.)

But in between casting and releasing/takes effect there seems to be a "Ready Spell Abyss" where all we have is "concentration" and a very vague non-specific reference to "holding energy" where the main question is this - is that held energy readied spell thingy at all perceivable, dispellable, counterspellable or identifiable using XgtE or other means... or has it fallen off the weave into some unspecified abyss of rules omission?

So let me give you my own Gm rulings on this:
A readied action or at least that someone has a readied action is at very minumum detectable. with an insight check for "next move" because the subject has a clearly defined focus and intention Whether or not they can get the info without an insight check depends on the nature of the action readied and the degree of discernment is limited by the insight check - easy to see the focus is on the east door but not so much whether its "first guy thru" or what.

A readied spell's held energy has a visible/audible/perceivable effect *if* the actual spell effect has such. The energy is visible if and only if the result it would create is also. So, a suggestion spell held would not show any visible pulsing energy but an acid arrow or guiding bolt would.

A readied spell's "held energy" can be identified using an arcana check as detailed in XGtE and the usual rules *or* essentially the same way you would do it for counterspell purposes even if you were not opting to use the XGtE.) basically the "held energy" is as unique as the spell effect would be.

So by both of these i am *not* assuming the omission of info about the ready/energy status means it gets a free pass.

As for Dispel vs Counter - I rule it can be Dispelled while in a ready state but not counterspelled - because it specifically states casting has been done.

But, how have you ruled this or have you seen it ruled or if neither - how would you approach it?

That's a lot of reading, and most of it is unnecessary. The problem with casting a spell and readying it as a reaction is, they have to release the spell by the end of the turn, or the spell is wasted. If the observer was a spell caster and understood what the cleric was doing, they wouldn't have to cast counterspell or dispel magic, they can just wait for the round to be over and see if the cleric releases a spell or not. This will also teach the cleric a valuable lesson. Never ready a leveled spell.

 

[iamntbatman]

That's a lot of reading, and most of it is unnecessary. The problem with casting a spell and readying it as a reaction is, they have to release the spell by the end of the turn, or the spell is wasted. If the observer was a spell caster and understood what the cleric was doing, they wouldn't have to cast counterspell or dispel magic, they can just wait for the round to be over and see if the cleric releases a spell or not. This will also teach the cleric a valuable lesson. Never ready a leveled spell.

I would say the RAW is not clear on this. It does not specify WHEN the spell slot is consumed, so I think it is reasonable to rule that it's consumed when released instead of when initially cast. It also does not say that you automatically release the spell after a round. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, as other readied actions also shouldn't work that way at all. "I ready an action to shoot the first hostile to come through this door with my bow." "Ok, six seconds have passed, you release an arrow at the door." ...What? No. I think reading that the spell is automatically released after the round has ended is an extremely overzealous and likely incorrect reading of the RAW and RAI.

 

[neogod22]

I would say the RAW is not clear on this. It does not specify WHEN the spell slot is consumed, so I think it is reasonable to rule that it's consumed when released instead of when initially cast. It also does not say that you automatically release the spell after a round. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, as other readied actions also shouldn't work that way at all. "I ready an action to shoot the first hostile to come through this door with my bow." "Ok, six seconds have passed, you release an arrow at the door." ...What? No. I think reading that the spell is automatically released after the round has ended is an extremely overzealous and likely incorrect reading of the RAW and RAI.

I didn't say it was released, I said it was wasted. The spell is consumed when you complete the casting. If you decide to hold the energy in your hand, that's at your peril. You're right, the rules don't overtly say until the end of the round, you still only get 1 action, and 1 reaction per round, and then it resets. Just like a fighter who readies an arrow at the door, when his turn comes around again, and he didn't fire, his turn was wasted. That way a wizard at the start of the game can say, I'm going to ready a fireball, and got through the entire game holding a readied fireball until he says "oh enemies, my trigger goes off and I fireball the room before anyone can react." But I guess if you want to play that way, that's up to you if you're the DM.

 

[Prakriti]

You can't Ready an Action outside of combat, so the question is moot outside of a few exceptional cases.

If the PCs want to get the drop on the approaching enemies, then they should Hide. Then you can resolve things as usual with Stealth checks, passive Perception, etc.

 

[5ekyu]

That's a lot of reading, and most of it is unnecessary. The problem with casting a spell and readying it as a reaction is, they have to release the spell by the end of the turn, or the spell is wasted. If the observer was a spell caster and understood what the cleric was doing, they wouldn't have to cast counterspell or dispel magic, they can just wait for the round to be over and see if the cleric releases a spell or not. This will also teach the cleric a valuable lesson. Never ready a leveled spell.

Well thanks for the input but as far as the topic that was a swing and a miss.

 

[5ekyu]

You can't Ready an Action outside of combat, so the question is moot outside of a few exceptional cases.

If the PCs want to get the drop on the approaching enemies, then they should Hide. Then you can resolve things as usual with Stealth checks, passive Perception, etc.

Is there a rule specificalky prohibiying ready an action outsulide of combat or is this the assumption that if it was organized in the combat section it cannot be done outside of combat thing again?

 

[5ekyu]

BTW if it helps get around the distractions assume the following preabmle

"in the middle of a large ongoing combat, a warrior and a priest move into a room as enemies move in towards that room. the warrior and cleric shut the door and..."

So, now, there is a combat in play and there has been an initiative and ... blah blah blah...

Also add, "in spite of everyone in the known universe agreeing that one should never ready a spell, apparently as an axiom, its literally carved on mountains..."

 

[neogod22]

Well thanks for the input but as far as the topic that was a swing and a miss.

I'm sure you read my second post that I created, after reading the rules again, since I was going to direct you to the page number, then realized my mistake.

 

[Prakriti]

Is there a rule specificalky prohibiying ready an action outsulide of combat or is this the assumption that if it was organized in the combat section it cannot be done outside of combat thing again?

The latter. The Ready action only appears under the list of "Actions in Combat" on p. 192, which says "When you take your action on your turn, you can take one of the actions presented here..." Readying actions isn't mentioned in any other context, so there's no reason to think that it can be done outside of combat. Stealth and the Surprised condition are the mechanics for determining the outcome of an ambush or surprise attack in 5E.