D&D General The rise and fall of D&D in Japan

Blue Orange

Gone to Texas
I really miss when JRPGs were obviously western fantasy. Zelda, FF, etc etc. Now they are far more influenced by their home country. Which is fine, I still enjoy them. I just miss when they weren't so "anime".

I'd kill for a Zelda or FF or whatever that looks more like Skyrim instead of 16 year olds running around collecting cute birds or something before returning the quest to kill god.
In Tabletop, Das Schwarze Auge has been translated into English (partially) as The Dark Eye, and still seems pretty western-fantasy to me.

I think the Shin Megami Tensei series has a darker tone, though obviously nonwestern. The Japanese made a whole bunch of Wizardry clones, some of which I think have been translated into English.
 

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This may be inaccurate or at least dated, but I recall Flying Buffalo claiming Tunnels & Trolls had always outsold D&D in Japan. Is (or was) that actually the case?
 

This may be inaccurate or at least dated, but I recall Flying Buffalo claiming Tunnels & Trolls had always outsold D&D in Japan. Is (or was) that actually the case?
I think "always" is a bit of an exaggeration, but I think it's true that the Japanese edition of T&T was initially sold in very cheap paper bags, and that's how many copies were sold. It was reprinted many times, and a unique Japanese variant, HYPER T&T, was also released.

When D&D was sold as a 4,800 yen boxed set in slightly larger toy stores, a small core book available for 660 yen in a small local bookstore would have been attractive to a low-teen geek.
 



When D&D was sold as a 4,800 yen boxed set in slightly larger toy stores, a small core book available for 660 yen in a small local bookstore would have been attractive to a low-teen geek.
I can certainly understand that. A bargain's a bargain after all. As a kid I bought a lot more of those little ~$3 microgames from Metagaming and Task Force Games than I ever did $15-20 boxed games from Avalon Hill or SPI.

I'm pretty sure even in the US the current edition of T&T has always been cheaper than the D&D core books from the same time period, albeit not by such a large margin.
I think "always" is a bit of an exaggeration, but I think it's true that the Japanese edition of T&T was initially sold in very cheap paper bags, and that's how many copies were sold. It was reprinted many times, and a unique Japanese variant, HYPER T&T, was also released.
Yes, well, it was Flying Buffalo themselves making the claim, and I always had some doubts. Still, even briefly topping D&D in Japan would be worth crowing about. It's never come close in the US.

They did carry Hyper T&T on their US storefront once it came out, which was an interesting touch - I assume it was published over there, right?
 

Clint_L

Hero
I think a point that is missing from this discussion is not to focus on Japanese culture, particularly those of us who lack any particular qualifications to do so, but instead on American culture. As I posted on another thread, D&D presents a quintessentially American take on fantasy (or perhaps a quintessentially English-language take on fantasy). Like English itself, D&D offers a polyglot version of quasi-European medieval-renaissance high fantasy, as received through pulp magazines and other pop culture. It is to fantasy as Las Vegas is to culture: there's something for everyone, even if makes no sense and is completely divorced from its original context. It's shiny and fun and fundamentally incoherent.

So I don't think it's at all surprising when other cultures look at the ideas of D&D and then want to make their own RPGs. D&D has never done well outside the English-speaking world, and that's because it is a game built on a very English-speaking perspective.
 

I suspect the potential new players didn't want to spend too much money.

I have got an idea to explain how could be possible a "D&D Isekai". When (Magic: the Gathering) Phyrexians invaded Kamigawa (cyberpunk age) there were victims (this is a better reason than the trope of being hit by a truck). Then the souls of the victims are reincarnated "within a book", well, not so simple. Those souls aren't within a fiction work, but in a reality previous those books or novels to be written. Those reincarnated souls not only keep their scientific and technologic knownledges but also they know "future events" because they time-traveled to the past before the fiction was written in Kamigawa.

* I see D&D heroic groups is more cosmopolitan, with members from radically different origins, but isekai groups are mainly humans, but when the main character is a human with a harem of monster girls.

* If you allow me the suggestion (again) I would like to advice a little retcon about the lore of korokoburu from Kara-Tur. The name means "people under the leaves of Fuki". Then the korobokur like to wear parasol/umbrella for the sun and hats made by fuki leaves because in their culture this is a sign of good luck.

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* If the hengeyokai return let's remember the ears shouldn't be in the top because then the ear canals would be vertical or diagonal.

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* I would bet PC species from Kara-Tur should be redesigned as potential "monster-waifus"
 

As I posted on another thread, D&D presents a quintessentially American take on fantasy (or perhaps a quintessentially English-language take on fantasy).
I'd lean toward the latter interpretation personally. While the US input pretty clearly dominates, the UK community had quite a lot of influence early on thanks in large part to Games Workshop and White Dwarf before they started exclusively focusing on their own product lines. Anecdotally, both Australia and Canada supposedly influenced the West Coast communities more than they did where I was gaming in upstate New York, but that's third-hand info from a distant past at best for me.

Regardless, not surprising that it doesn't take off like wildfire with other cultures.
 

GreyLord

Legend
In terms of rules and especially the lore, Sword World has changed as much, if not more so, than D&D. Change has been an issue with D&D in Japan, but its not changes itself as much as the frequency of changes over the years, as I'll detail below.


Not only did D&D do quite well when it was originally introduced to Japan, but Sword World was originally a straight calque of D&D tropes to a non-TSR ruleset, and it became the most popular TRPG in Japan by a wide margin. In video games, as well, Legend of Zelda, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest (Dragon Warrior in the US) these dealt almost entirely in D&D tropes, and were huge successes.

Nor is this just about the 80s and 90s; the most popular anime at the moment is Frieren: Beyond Journey's End, which is pure medieval European fantasy and so steeped in D&D tropes that a mimic was voted the third most popular character.

The point about Tieflings and Orcs is particularly odd, given that Sword World 2.0 introduced the Nightmare race, which are essentially Sword World Tieflings. (Monster characters have also long been a thing.)

It's not about tropes. The Japanese are such mass producers and consumers of media that it's never about the tropes. It's worth pointing out that Masaki's article doesn't talk about D&D's tropes other than to note their significant impact on Japanese pop culture.

The reason D&D is not the dominant player in the Japanese TRPG scene is because it has, since its earliest days, positioned itself as a boutique product in a niche market. This was fine in the 80s when everyone was doing box sets, but not in the 90s, when the TRPG market responded to a recession by creating cheaper, more cost-effective products.

Let's say I'm a young, Japanese would-be RPG gamer looking to buy my first game. I look at the offerings from Wizards of the Coast. Ooh, I can get the 5e Players Handbook from Amazon for 5,958 yen (39 USD). Or, I can get the Sword World 2.5 Rulebook I paperback for 990 yen (6.50 USD), and I don't even need to get funny dice. Or, heck, I'll get a Starter Set! The D&D Starter Set retails for 2,200 yen (15.50 USD).

Or I can get a Sword World 2.5 Starter Set for 3,850 yen (25.50 USD). D&D is cheaper! But what do I get for that 2,200 yen? An adventure booklet, a rulebook booklet, 5 pre-gen characters sheets, and a set of dice. What do I get for the 3,850 yen Sword World starter set? An adventure booklet, a rulebook booklet, pre-gen dry-erase character cards, 10 six-sided dice, cards for all monsters in the adventure, item cards to go with the character cards, dungeon tiles for all the rooms in the adventure, cut-out characters stands, two post-card size dry-erase white boards, and 5 dry erase markers. That is easily more value for my money.

The fact is, aside from a 4 year period in the 90s, D&D has never adjusted its physical products to match the demands of the Japanese TRPG market. A Japanese D&D player gets the same thing as a D&D player in any other region, and that has its own kind of value, but it means books that are hugely overpriced compared to local fare, or box sets that under-deliver compared to its competitors.

Add to this how the Japanese D&D fanbase, such as it is, has been repeatedly jerked around by WotC. From its licensing deal with Hobby Japan killing the previously localized Rules Cyclopedia, to the switch to 3.5 just as the 3.0 books were getting their Japanese release in 2003, to the switch to 4e a few years later, to the switch to 5e a few years after that (without even a Japanese release of the books until 2017!), to canceling planned Japanese releases of Tasha's and Icewind Dale in November 2021 so that WotC could take translations entirely in-house and start the release schedule all over again in December 2022. (And a few months after that announcing development of entirely revised core books!)
I love smaller paperback books as RPGs. It's one of the BIG reasons I have the 4e Essentials as one of my travel RPGs I go around with.

I also have several others in that same vein (Gamma World was broken down out of the box into it's books and cards, Runequest, Starship Troopers, C&C, Paizo Pocket editions, etc) for US RPGs as well when I can find them.

I wish more would do these in the West, but even more accessible (more like the Japanese ones even).
 

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