The Tome of Time (A second book of magic)

[Archimedes314]

Some of the Echocaller abilities are a bit problematic. I'm not going to make a full character, but let's assume that some twentieth level echocaller has a strength of 14, a dexterity of 30 (16+4 (level)+4 (inherent)+6 (item)), and a wisdom of 20 (15+1 (level)+4 (item)). A decent but not unreasonable twentieth level layout. His other stats are not relevant for this example. Let's further assume that this echocaller has weapon finesse and the two-weapon fighting feat chain. As for equipment and buffs, beyond his stat boosting items he's got two +3 icy wounding shortswords and the party wizard has cast greater invisibility of him. So his full-attack looks like +38/+33/+28 with both his main and off hands. The average AC of CR 20-24 monsters (which is the likely range of threats a twentieth level character is facing) in the MM is 39 (rounded up from 38.45... even though I really should have rounded down), the average flat-footed AC is 38 (rounded up from 37.81...). So his percent chance to hit with each of his attacks is 95%/80%/55%. His average damage (if the attack hits) is 47 (3.5 (shortsword base damage)+2 (strength)+3 (enhancement)+3.5 (icy)+35 (sudden strike)) for his primary hand and 46 (same as before but only +1 for strength) for his off-hand. Factoring in chance to hit and criticals his average damage per full attack is 217.58. So far this is equivalent to a TWF rogue. But a twentieth level echocaller can use Echoes of Future and of Past to create, on average, 5 copies of himself. He makes a full-attack, and with his second swift action he uses Stolen Moments to grant himself another full-round action, using this for another full-attack. Each of his copies makes a full-attack, uses Stolen Moments, makes another full-attack, and activates Echoing Strike. The total average damage is 4786.76, not to mention the 72 points of constitution damage if all attacks hit. To put this in perspective: this is without any non-core material (excepting the echocaller itself of course), he can do this 7 times a day, and a Hecatoncheires has only a thousand some odd hp and a 32 in constitution.

A lot of this can be fixed by appending some minor limitations and changing the wording of some of the abilities to make them more clear (for instance, some of the abilties don't specify a duration, or to what exactly they apply). I like the class and the idea of chronomancy in general and I'd be happy to go through it and do some proofreading/twinkproofing.

 

[Stratovarius]

The PDF link isn't working for me.

Dave

Yeah, I took it down for the moment to work on things. Holidays are causing some havoc though.

Some of the Echocaller abilities are a bit problematic. I'm not going to make a full character, but let's assume that some twentieth level echocaller has a strength of 14, a dexterity of 30 (16+4 (level)+4 (inherent)+6 (item)), and a wisdom of 20 (15+1 (level)+4 (item)). A decent but not unreasonable twentieth level layout. His other stats are not relevant for this example. Let's further assume that this echocaller has weapon finesse and the two-weapon fighting feat chain. As for equipment and buffs, beyond his stat boosting items he's got two +3 icy wounding shortswords and the party wizard has cast greater invisibility of him. So his full-attack looks like +38/+33/+28 with both his main and off hands. The average AC of CR 20-24 monsters (which is the likely range of threats a twentieth level character is facing) in the MM is 39 (rounded up from 38.45... even though I really should have rounded down), the average flat-footed AC is 38 (rounded up from 37.81...). So his percent chance to hit with each of his attacks is 95%/80%/55%. His average damage (if the attack hits) is 47 (3.5 (shortsword base damage)+2 (strength)+3 (enhancement)+3.5 (icy)+35 (sudden strike)) for his primary hand and 46 (same as before but only +1 for strength) for his off-hand. Factoring in chance to hit and criticals his average damage per full attack is 217.58. So far this is equivalent to a TWF rogue. But a twentieth level echocaller can use Echoes of Future and of Past to create, on average, 5 copies of himself. He makes a full-attack, and with his second swift action he uses Stolen Moments to grant himself another full-round action, using this for another full-attack. Each of his copies makes a full-attack, uses Stolen Moments, makes another full-attack, and activates Echoing Strike. The total average damage is 4786.76, not to mention the 72 points of constitution damage if all attacks hit. To put this in perspective: this is without any non-core material (excepting the echocaller itself of course), he can do this 7 times a day, and a Hecatoncheires has only a thousand some odd hp and a 32 in constitution.

A lot of this can be fixed by appending some minor limitations and changing the wording of some of the abilities to make them more clear (for instance, some of the abilties don't specify a duration, or to what exactly they apply). I like the class and the idea of chronomancy in general and I'd be happy to go through it and do some proofreading/twinkproofing.

Sorry about the delay, I was away for most of Turkey week. I can see where a strong build would be rather dangerous, and this is one of those cases where a good bit more playtesting would be desirous. I'd love to have you come on board in order to take a look at all the material as it stands, as I'm sure there is a fair amount that needs tweaking.

 

[Sylrae]

Chronomancer impact of the Eons makes Lifespan irrelevant, as you can change your age well before that. Lifespan is essentially useless.

 

[Archimedes314]

Hey, no problem, I totally understand the holiday thing. Anyway, I went through the abilities and called out the problematic ones and suggested various fixes. Feel free to use any that you like. I hope you had a good time on Thanksgiving though!

[*]Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Echocallers are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and light and medium armour,

Seems okay, the rogue has more limited proficiencies, but is less combat oriented (and thus gets a bunch of nice defensive and non-combat abilities).

[*]Movement Repetitive: Recalling time from only a moment before, the Echocaller repeats his movement of the round, moving in the same direction and distance as his first move action in the round. This costs one Echo to activate.

This ability isn't overpowered, but it is redundant with the later Stolen Moments ability. I say drop it and give the class a scaling fast movement ability instead, topping out at +30 ft.

[*]Echo Ability: Calling a fragment of the creature's time to himself, the Echocaller brings one of the creature's Extraordinary abilities, gaining it for one round. The target must be within 5' for every two class levels. This costs one Echo to activate.

Like others have said, I'd suggest adding the restriction that the Echocaller must have seen the creature using the ability.

[*]Echoing Strike: When you succeed on a Sudden Strike attack, the damage repeats each round, fading away slowly. The round after a successful Sudden Strike, you do 2/3rds damage, rounded up. Two rounds afterwards you do 1/3rds, rounded down. This costs one Echo to activate.

This should only apply to the first sudden strike in a round, and it should only affect the extra damage done by the sudden strike ability.

[*]Soul Echo: The Echocaller briefly rewinds time for a single creature, bringing it back to life in the exact state it was the round before it died. The creature dies again at the end of the round. This costs one Echo to activate.

I say just simplify this to work like the spell speak with dead, caster level equal to class level.

[*]Echo of the Weave: Spells and powers leave a trace in the timestream that can be copied by those who can feel and see it. The Echocaller copies one existing spell onto a single creature, even if the spell originally affected an area. Treat this spell exactly as if it had been cast by the original target, except that the originator of the spell is the Echocaller. Both the target and spell to be copied must be within 5' for every two class levels. This costs one Echo to activate.

Does this ability only work on ongoing spell effects? The second to last sentence seems to imply this.

[*]Stolen Moments: Pulling moments from the future and from unspent times in the past, the Echocaller grants himself extra actions.

• At level 8, the Echocaller can grant himself an extra move action. This costs one Echo to activate.
• At level 13, the Echocaller can grant himself an extra standard action. This costs one Echo to activate.
• At level 18, the Echocaller can grant himself an extra full-round action. This costs two Echos to activate.

Abilities that grant extra actions should always come with some sort of penalty, IMO, because the number of action you get in a round is the most fundamental limitation on character power. The move action one is probably okay, but for the others I'd suggest giving him a small penalty to attacks, saves, and ability checks (-1 for the standard action, and -2 for the full-round action) during the round after he uses this ability.

[*]Shimmer in Time: Hiding in a moment of time, the Echocaller grants himself 50% concealment, only partially there in the present. This costs one Echo to activate.

What is the duration of this ability?

[*]Link Through Time: The Echocaller and another creature mirror one another's actions, both stepping to the right if one steps to the right, both attacking if one attacks. The Echocaller and the creature exactly mimic the moves of the other. The target gets a Will save vs 10 + Wisdom Modifier + 1/2 Class level to resist. The target must be within 5' for every two class levels when Link Through Time is cast. This costs one Echo to activate.

This ability is fine, as far as I can tell, but again, no duration listed.

[*]Echoed Energy: The Echocaller copies a spell as it is cast at him, flinging the exact spell (as if cast by the original caster) back at its originator. It still effects the Echocaller as normal. This costs one Echo to activate.

This seems okay to me.

[*]Echo of the Past: The Echocaller causes time to replay itself for a single creature, forcing it to repeat the last round. The target gets a Will save vs 10 + Wisdom Modifier + 1/2 Class level to resist. If it fails, that creature performs exactly the same motions as the last turn. If the creature moved 10' and attacked last turn, it moves 10' in the exact same direction and attacks again, swinging at enemies, allies, or even open air. The target must be within 5' for every two class levels. This costs one Echo to activate.

This seems fine, as well.

[*]Future Echo: The Echocaller pulls himself from only a second in the future, creating an an exact clone of himself that lasts for one round. The clone cannot use any magic items that are consumable, nor any use or command-word activated item, only items with a permanent effect. The Echocaller's clone can also not use this ability, or Echoes of Future and of Past. This costs two Echoes to activate.

The clone shouldn't be able to use any echo abilities, shouldn't receive the benefits of any temporary buffs, and you should disappear during the following round. Also, where does the clone appear?

[*]Echoes of the Edge: Recalling the his previous strikes in the turn, the Echocaller performs a full attack action against a single creature that he has already attacked this turn. This costs one Echo to activate.

This ability is pretty much redundant with the last Stolen Moments (which you get in just two levels), I suggest dropping it.

[*]Fading Echoes: Pulling away the waves of time from a creature, the Echocaller causes him to slowly fade away. If the creature fails a Will save vs 10 + 1/2 Class level + Wisdom modifier, it dissipates over three rounds. The round it fails the save, it is 100% real, the second round 66% real, and 33% the third. The next round it is fully dead and gone, and can only be restored by Miracle or True Resurrection. Treat this in the same manner you would a creature created by a Shadow Conjuration or Shades spell. The target must be within 5' for every two class levels. This costs one Echo to activate.

This ability also seems fine, but I say make it a standard action to use. That way the echocaller has to choose whether or not to use his save or die or fight normally (or use Stolen Moments, I suppose).

[*]A Slice of Time: The Echocaller has mastered time, and gains an extra Swift action a round. He also gains two echoes per class level per day, instead of one per level as before. He still adds his Wisdom modifier to the total.

This is just too good. I like capstone abilities because they reward staying in a single class, but an extra swift action for a class who's primary ability relies on swift actions is too much. Not to mention that doubling his echoes basically means that he never has to worry about running out. I think you should drop it.

[*]Echoes of Future and of Past: 2d4 copies of the Echocaller (1d4 from the past, and 1d4 from the future) appear around the Echocaller. Each acts as as described in Future Echo. This costs four Echoes to activate.[/LIST]

This is way too strong. My suggestion is instead to upgrade the Echo of the Future ability so that along with your "real" duplicate 2d4 semi-real duplicates appear. The semi-real duplicates are just like the regular duplicate but all they can do is flank, move (at your base speed), and make attacks of opportunity (at your attack bonus). If an attack is successful (your AC) against one of them, they just disappear.

 

[Stratovarius]

Just to be lazy, I'll throw my comments in here in bold. I also tossed you an email regarding the Tome of Time.

Hey, no problem, I totally understand the holiday thing. Anyway, I went through the abilities and called out the problematic ones and suggested various fixes. Feel free to use any that you like. I hope you had a good time on Thanksgiving though!

It went pretty well, was skiing for the whole time, made me a fairly happy camper.

Seems okay, the rogue has more limited proficiencies, but is less combat oriented (and thus gets a bunch of nice defensive and non-combat abilities).

As a class, this guy is a little closer to the Ninja than the rogue, more martial, less skills, and less secondary benefits.

This ability isn't overpowered, but it is redundant with the later Stolen Moments ability. I say drop it and give the class a scaling fast movement ability instead, topping out at +30 ft.

This isn't quite the same as a second move ability or a speed bonus, as it requires that the echocaller move in the same direction and distance as he already moved in the round, while a second move action allows moving in any direction, or taking other actions aside from a repeat of existing movement. I'll probably increase the cost on the Stolen Moments to further differentiate the two abilities.

Like others have said, I'd suggest adding the restriction that the Echocaller must have seen the creature using the ability.

Certainly a reasonable suggestion, it'll be implemented.

This should only apply to the first sudden strike in a round, and it should only affect the extra damage done by the sudden strike ability.

Sorry if the wording wasn't clear, it was intended only to affect the damage of the sudden strike, rather than all damage from an attack. Limiting it to the first sudden strike of the round is a good suggestion, it was intended to be that way and it didn't turn out that way in writing.

I say just simplify this to work like the spell speak with dead, caster level equal to class level.

Unclear wording issue. It is supposed to bring the target fully back to life for one round, rather than just talk to them. Think of it as a one round summon effect, more than anything else. Bring back the party spellcaster for one last ditch spell toss, the party cleric for a heal spell, and so on.

Does this ability only work on ongoing spell effects? The second to last sentence seems to imply this.

This is supposed only to work on duration spell. I might limit it only to those with a range of touch, or personal, rather than allowing it to affect a larger array of spells, but as it stands, he can copy things like a Firecloud spell to affect a single creature. This is a bit annoying, and making it single target spells only makes it easier.

Abilities that grant extra actions should always come with some sort of penalty, IMO, because the number of action you get in a round is the most fundamental limitation on character power. The move action one is probably okay, but for the others I'd suggest giving him a small penalty to attacks, saves, and ability checks (-1 for the standard action, and -2 for the full-round action) during the round after he uses this ability.

The cost of these abilities needs to go up, given how powerful they are, and perhaps with some kind of penalty as well. I might also shift the order around a little and add a beginning one that grants a single extra attack, then the move -> standard -> full options.

What is the duration of this ability?

Addressed elsewhere.

This ability is fine, as far as I can tell, but again, no duration listed.

Addressed elsewhere.

This seems okay to me.

Thanks.

This seems fine, as well.

Thanks.

The clone shouldn't be able to use any echo abilities, shouldn't receive the benefits of any temporary buffs, and you should disappear during the following round. Also, where does the clone appear?

The copy is supposed to not benefit from any non-permanent buffs, which includes its own Echoes abilities. It appears next to the user, and disappears after one round, although again, things that need to be made clearer. Always the joy of looking at unedited work.

This ability is pretty much redundant with the last Stolen Moments (which you get in just two levels), I suggest dropping it.

Going to adjust the cost of Stolen Moments so that this can be taken as a separate option, rather than having it be overshadowed.

This ability also seems fine, but I say make it a standard action to use. That way the echocaller has to choose whether or not to use his save or die or fight normally (or use Stolen Moments, I suppose).

Well, the idea is that he can use any of his abilities while fighting normally, but for this one it is probably a good idea to shift it around and make it a standard action, to prevent the death spell spraying.

This is just too good. I like capstone abilities because they reward staying in a single class, but an extra swift action for a class who's primary ability relies on swift actions is too much. Not to mention that doubling his echoes basically means that he never has to worry about running out. I think you should drop it.

I rather like this ability as it stands. The extra swift actions allow him to use his abilities extra times a round, as per Quicken spell and the other various multi-action abilities, while the upgrade to the number of echoes that he has is likely necessary, given that with around 25 (an average number), he could very easily run dry in the third encounter of the day, and perhaps earlier, especially if he is using a large number of the higher level abilities. Had it come at an earlier level, I would be more concerned, but with level 9 spells and epic monsters around, it seems less worrying where it stands.

This is way too strong. My suggestion is instead to upgrade the Echo of the Future ability so that along with your "real" duplicate 2d4 semi-real duplicates appear. The semi-real duplicates are just like the regular duplicate but all they can do is flank, move (at your base speed), and make attacks of opportunity (at your attack bonus). If an attack is successful (your AC) against one of them, they just disappear.

This is taken from the Arcane Duelist's copy abilities, although it is stronger than that one. Probably does need to be downgraded, although this needs to be compared to Gate, Timestop, and other fight ending spells in terms of what is available at that level.

 

[Archimedes314]

I see what you are saying about the need for a bump in the number of echoes at high levels, but I still think doubling is a bit too much. Perhaps some flat bonus would be more appropriate? And as for the extra swift action, it also seems less out there when compared to quicken spell and the like, but I think maybe it could use some small opportunity cost. I can't really think of an appropriate one, but either way I think it should be fine. There may be ways to abuse an extra swift action, but because the class gets the ability so late they would be hard to pull off.

 

[Stratovarius]

Hrmmm, it appears that in this version I have a missing restriction. That second free action is supposed to be used only for Echoes. If I really wanted to restrict it, the Echocaller would only get a second swift action if he had already used his swift action to create an echo, and with the second swift action he could only create another echo. It does fit the doubling theme fairly well.

Part of the reason I used doubling was that it's fairly easy mathematically, and that at higher levels, his abilities start to lose the punch they once had. He's fairly fragile for someone who is at least a secondary combatant if not a primary.