The Walking Dead 4.6 "Live Bait" (Spoiler Alert)
I don't want them to "develop" his character. The guy's a sociopath villain, not a "sad bear loves too much" character. After the torture and death he has wrought, he doesn't get sympathy.
Plus, the writers just had Carol kicked out for killing two people who were fatally ill, and instead of her, we get a redemption arc for a man who guns down people in cold blood for just being a theoretical threat to his power structure? Really?
I am not amused. At all.
Bedrockgames
Legend
I disagree. They took him about as far as they could with being a sociopath. That would have got old real quick. Instead of cartoon evil, they decided to make him more of a real person who snapped after power had gone to his head. And yes he did somecealy bad things, which is kind of the point. The setting is filled with moral ambiguity, which is one of the things i love about. That he did such terrible things makes the pssible redemption all the more meaningful. And it also seperates it from other redemption stories you tend to see.
Carol was kicked out by rick. The writers were not commenting on her behavior. If anything she came out look really good because she accepted the decision and had the stength to face the world on her own. Rick kicking carol out of the group is probably going to be the source of a lot of internal conflict. I dont know. Getting upset about carol, because the governor is getting fleshed out, seems a bit weird to me. People have been waiting to see the governor and that is who we got. The carol thread is also very impotant and i am sure they will pick up on that in an episode or two (there is a reason they left us with the cliffhange of rick not having told daryl about carol yet).
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They were completely reliant on the food their father provided, they lived by his rules (e.g. still worrying about swearing), their lives focused around taking care of him (not their survival), and he was clearly the leader in their social hierarchy. The minute their father died, the Gov was in command; he not only killed the zombie dad, but buried the body for them. And the girls happily followed the Gov, trading a zombie-secured childhood home for blindly following the first man they met even though he had no plan or even a destination.
Seems to me that the zombie apocalypse is becoming a pretty misogynistic place.
Bedrockgames said:
That's basically the problem. There's really nothing that he can do that I care about. If they try to pull a redemption story, I won't buy into it because of how far they took him as a villain. And if he turns around after this and attacks the main group again, nothing is gained by seeing this side story. Either way, I just don't care about the Governor's story. I care about the main group. And breaking the plot into two separate stories at this point, especially considering the speed at which plots sometimes move on this show, is a major downer for me.
This is part of my reason behind disliking spending time on this after booting out Carol. Carol was the last strong female on the show*. So, they have her make a series of bad decisions, boot her to the side, and instead focus on other things for several episodes - including how the villanous menfolk are doing! This is not a good writing choice, to me. What they plan for Carol has to be stunningly good storytelling to justify this.
Agreed. If they've taken the Governor about as far as he can go, they have the option of going no further with him at all!
*Maggie might eventually become such, but at the moment she's too dependent on her relationships with men to qualify.
Jet Shield
First Post
I'd love to know how these women survived for over a year in that apartment with zombies actually in the building. We know that zombies are attracted to sound, yet there seems to have been no fallout from one of the women burning a bunch of ammo shooting at the zombies upstairs at some point in the past (and, apparently, being too stupid to try a tactic other than aiming for center mass after that had proven ineffective). I'm not sure if the episode was about women needing a man to take care of them (which is silly), or about stupid people (who just happen to be women) needing a leader.
Bedrockgames
Legend
I think you are reading into it too much. My take is carol is a strong female character and they treated her like they treat other strong and important characters: they allowed her to develop on an interesting course and didn't treat her differently or ptotect just because she was strong and female. She is still on the show and they had rick do what he did because it is an interesting development that creates a lot of drama and instantly divides the audience into team carol and team rick. There were more debates on whether carol was right or rick was right after that episode than anything else. Now I get not liking that direction. Or finding it dull. But I really have trouble seeing it as an attempt by sexist writers to silence a strong female lead they deteloped themselves.
And lets not forget, the best warrior in the prison, and probably the most fearless is Michonne. She is like Rick and Daryl combined with her moral center and toughness. We've had lots of strong women in the show, and I am sure there will be plenty more. But it would be a mistake to have the show revolve around the idea of having to protect the female characters from plot developments that are interesting.
Bedrockgames
Legend
That is fair, if you have no interest in it, you have no interest in it. I think they could have spliced the stories together more, so we got some of the prison along with the governor this episode. But people have clearly been anticipating the governor and the decision the writers had was to either continue on the villainous course or go in a different direction. I love a good villain, but personally think clearly striking out on the villainous path would have been less interesting and reduced him to a kind if cobra commander figure. Now we don't really know where the governor will end up. It is more interesting because whether he goes full evil, arrives at a more plausible middle pointm or is fully redeemed, it is clearly his decision to make. There were hints in the previous season that he was a once a good man (milton made that point quite strongly) and the question is if that can emerge once again. It has even more weight because many of the bad things he's done were done to major characters still ondthe show. He can't erase what he did, and the thing inside him that came out when he was the leader of woodbury was a tangile and real quality he is going to have to continue to contend with.
I think I am reading it exactly as a number of my female friends who love the show are taking it. Call that "too much" if you will.
"Let us have the characters do these things that are seemingly out of character or stupid because it makes drama!" is not what I call good writing. Carol, having seen Rick's errors in autocracy, and having been a parent herself, and being arguably the most compassionate character since Dale, thinks teaching kids things she must hide from the parents a good idea? She thinks choosing life or death for others without talking to anyone about it is a good idea? That seems right?
Team Carol and Team Rick? Is this Walking Dead or Twilight? Do you not see the basic problem with dividing up into teams? You risk alienating a good chunk of your audience when you resolve in a way that satisfies one side or the other.
It'll be seen that way so long as it rests in the position of Rick having won. And, of course, if they turn around and say Carol was right, then Rick is degraded again as a leader-figure. They set it up as a pretty binary thing - one or the other of them is Wrong, and a middle-ground is going to be hard to find.
I don't actually care how badass they are in combat. Mearle was badass, but a weak person. Hershel, who probably has the show's lowest body count, is arguably one of the strongest people. Combat ability not the kind of strength I'm talking about - though admittedly, our language doesn't have a good word for what I'm talking about.
Michonne? Moral center? She spent most of last season silently pouting and being groundlessly angry at the Governor*. I don't see as she has been making statements on morality, or been a strong moral example, or been making difficult moral choices. She's merely been the McGuffin around which the moral debate was framed.
*Yes, Michonne was correct that the Governor was a bad egg, but she had no *evidence* when she decided it was so. She just guessed it, and "lucky guesser" isn't a sign of moral strength.
Bedrockgames
Legend
this is not what i hear from people like my wife and her friend who like the show, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just don't see it myself.
i felt it was in character for how she was developing. I think this all came from a place of compassion. And from a desire to spare other parents the pain she went through with her own daughter. Teaching kids to protect themselves, and not letting the other adults know, seemed in character to me. I think her decision to kill the people posed a risk to the rest of the prison was a crucial decision point for her. It was in keeping with her increasing sense of hyper vigilance this season.
i think they assume the audience is adult enough not to take those kinds of developments personally. The point about splitting into teams was people were torn on who was right, and it generated ocnversation after the show, which is good. I don't think carol was necesarrily in the wrong here. This is a very different world and she focusing on helping the prison survive. Ultimately i sided with rick, but I still think he went about it wrong. The development raised a number of moral questions that were compelling.
I don't think this is the case. You read it as binary. So far walking dead has been a very morally gray world. They can both be right in some respects and they bo be wrong in some respects. The outcomes are not necessarily commentaries ont he characters actions. If people choose to see what happens to each and every character as a commevtary on race or gender, then i think they are reading too much into it. Carol is an interesting female character and they taking her in a direction that is true to her development and advances the story.
which is why i also mentioned her moral strength. But combat strength is very importan in the walking dead setting. If inner strength is your measure, then honestly the prize probably goes to maggie or herschel for being the strongest in show. Rick is broken. Daryl only recenlty learned not to flinch when people compliment him. The governor is more broken than rick.
We obviously just disagree on Michonne. And i suspect we disagree on a lot of other issues (which is fine but probably colors our individual readings of the show). She started out cold like daryl and has warmed up considerably this season. I think she has been morally strong in opposition to the governor. Also her time in the prison she has been a centered character. And i think they did a much better job, and far less sexist, than how they handled her in the comic book. I think initially she just sensed something as wrong with the the governor. But when merle showed up to killl her, that is about all the evidence you need in post zombie world.
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