The Walking Dead 4.6 "Live Bait" (Spoiler Alert)

[Bedrockgames]

I believe this ep took place months ago compared to the last episode we saw at the Prison.

I am thinking one of two things will happen here:

1) The Governor will lead a new group of survivors and turn them into an army to rain vengeance on the Prison.

2) The Governor will lead a new group of survivors and somewhat redeem himself (as we saw in this episode) but something will happen and they will all die or cast him out, sending him way way out there on the crazy scale, and he will plan his revenge on the Prison by himself (maybe with some zombie herd help). When he was lurking about the Prison at the end of the previous episode, we did not see anyone else with him...

I do agree that the Governor is irredeemable in the viewer's eyes, but he is not irredeemable in his own eyes (er, eye).

i think it will either be number 2 or he is there to negotiate for something. Someone was feeding those rats to the zombies though and that reaks of the governor.

 

[Joker]

I don't think he's a very sympathetic character though. I don't feel sorry for him, but I am intrerested in the core question of the season which seems to be is there a point you reach where you just can't go back. That is why rick booted carol out, because rick appears to have been persuaded by creepy clara that once you reach a certain point on the path of shane, there is no return. After he talked with carol, i think he was convinced she'd reached that point. But i think the show may be suggesting rick is wrong. These are not people who were born sociopaths, they became them in a effort to survive and its possible there is hope or them. On the show there is no more extreme case than the governor. So if he can be redeemed, even in part, then that would indicate the others can as well (heck, If you rememberwhen rick killed shane he had already basically talked him out of what he was doing, and then he killed him). the one thing I really like about the show is it doesn't give us a simple view of morality. Holding on to your humanity is not only tough in the setting, but sometimes it hinders your ability to survive. You have to do some bad things to live and the challenge is not going off the cliff in the process (even rick has dipped into the sociopath pool occassionally out of necessity).

There's a huge difference between making hard choices when your life or the lives of those around you are in peril and what the Governor did.

Someone is not necessarily a sociopath if he does terrible* things to survive. Someone is a sociopath if he does those things because he feels like it or feels like he is entitled to do them.

Rick is a crushed person because of his loss and because of all the things he has had to do to survive with his family. This does not make him psychotic. He is emotionally and mentally unstable but through the help of those around him and his desire to keep the rest of his family safe he's able to muster the strength to carry on and to rationalize the decisions he has had to make.

The Governor takes the head of a pilot and ambushes a bunch of soldiers to take their gear. He kills off what remained of his village because they questioned his orders. He's hellbent on killing everyone that stands in his way, seemingly without remorse. This is psychotic anti-social behavior.
I agree with you that sociopaths will have a better chance of survival than those who try to uphold pre-Apocalypse social contracts. This explanation doesn't however excuse his behavior and it most certainly doesn't mean it should be tolerated.

The writers are most certainly trying to get us to empathize with him. We've seen nothing in this episode of his brutal ways. That's why I think they're setting us up for a shocker. Make him look like a new man now, get us to feel for him and then hit us in the gut as he sacrifices the little girl.

 

[Bedrockgames]

There's a huge difference between making hard choices when your life or the lives of those around you are in peril and what the Governor did.

Someone is not necessarily a sociopath if he does terrible* things to survive. Someone is a sociopath if he does those things because he feels like it or feels like he is entitled to do them.

the point is that line gets very fuzzg in a world like this. At a certain point, the governor crossed over from making these decisions because they were the tough but necessary calls to becoming adreal sociopath. The question the series poses, and has not yet answered, is how far is too far? It is interesting to me to wonder whether someone as bad as the governor can be redeemed. I think the show is giving more weight to invidual choice innate qualities. When characters cross moral boundaries it has been quite delibate (shane is a good example of this where he rationizes what it takes to survive and then decides to make that his new belief system in a way).

Rick is a crushed person because of his loss and because of all the things he has had to do to survive with his family. This does not make him psychotic. He is emotionally and mentally unstable but through the help of those around him and his desire to keep the rest of his family safe he's able to muster the strength to carry on and to rationalize the decisions he has had to make.

Yes, but he was getting close to crossing the line, that is why he rejected the mantle of leader at the end off last season, he was worried about becoming the governor.

The Governor takes the head of a pilot and ambushes a bunch of soldiers to take their gear. He kills off what remained of his village because they questioned his orders. He's hellbent on killing everyone that stands in his way, seemingly without remorse. This is psychotic anti-social behavior.

absolutely agree. But we know he didn't start out that way. He chose this path, and became a sociopath by taking it. Also, let's remember, killing the people of woodbury was, even for the governor, an extreme and somewhat out of character act. His whoe justification for the things he did to that point was protecting woodbury. I think that moment was the culmination of him snappiny (something that probably started when became governor but radically increased when penny was "killed"). Clearly he was stunned by his own actions. Obviously how yourview this stuff will be shaped by your view of free will, but they appear to be taking a lockean approach here that i just find way more interesting thaf "governor's an evil sociopath and that is all theredis to it". They are showing he still has a choice but that he still carries the stains of his previous choice and this is a slow process.

I agree with you that sociopaths will have a better chance of survival than those who try to uphold pre-Apocalypse social contracts. This explanation doesn't however excuse his behavior and it most certainly doesn't mean it should be tolerated.

I am not suggestion we tolerate murder and mahem, or excuse the governor's behavior. I am just interested in whether such a person can reverse course. It raises all kinds of interesting questions about identity and ethics. It is a very big question on a lot of people wont agree on. At what point is someone irredeemable. A redeemed governor would be advery interesting answer to that question (but that doesnt mean we tolerate or excuse the behavior). It seems to be a central question in the show. It has been lingering since shane and it was explord a bit with merle last season. In fact, the arch with merle last season was one of the truly brilliant aspects of season three in my opinion.

The writers are most certainly trying to get us to empathize with him. We've seen nothing in this episode of his brutal ways. That's why I think they're setting us up for a shocker. Make him look like a new man now, get us to feel for him and then hit us in the gut as he sacrifices the little girl.

I think they do want us to empathize with him, that is why we got his point of view. But i still dont find him a sympathetic character. I find him interesting, but not sympathetic. They are showing us a character who has some really bad qualities but is also capable of good as well. That is a bit more plausible than the cartoon version of evil you tend to get in american shows. It is just much more textured, less simple and not conclusive, which i findd lot more interesting. I also think they are not affraid to leave some questions unanswered, to let the audience debate and form their own conclusions.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The Governor takes the head of a pilot and ambushes a bunch of soldiers to take their gear. He kills off what remained of his village because they questioned his orders. He's hellbent on killing everyone that stands in his way, seemingly without remorse. This is psychotic anti-social behavior.
rl.

just to touch on this point again, i think these details are what make it so intriguing. It is easy to redeem a character that has done some bad but acceptible things. Even merle, who was pretty awful, they probably could have redeemed in an episode or two (though i think the way they handled his arch was more interesting than just having him become a nice guy). The governor had heads in fish tanks! He killed people with a smile! He has moved from doing what was required to survive to enjoying it, so by pretty much any measure, he was evil. The final act of killing his own people seemed to seal the deal. That is why it why i like them exploring whether he can be redeemed. If i was writing it, i know what my answer would be, but I am curion how the writers will answer it, and i am keeping an open mind even if their answer conflicts with my own. What I am liking about the show is they are asking questions and making decisions that get poeple talking about this stuff. That is much riskier than just telling us what we want to hear and what feels good. By and large, people either wanted the governor's head on a plate, or they wanted him to go nuts wiping out the prison. They gave us something else that i think is way more interesting.

 

[Joker]

I see where you and on differ on this. I really don't want to see the Governor find redemption. I think he's a despicable character that deserves to be at the wrong of end of a revenge stick.

When I call him a sociopath or a psychopath I don't mean it in the sense of everyday use as someone who goes crazy and kills people. I use it to describe him as a deceiving, aggressive person who feels no remorse for his actions or for the rights and lives of other people.

I hope he dies. I hope either Rick, Michonne, Darryl, Maggie or Glen do it. Preferably in some Sympathy for Lady Vengeance payback scene.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I see where you and on differ on this. I really don't want to see the Governor find redemption. I think he's a despicable character that deserves to be at the wrong of end of a revenge stick.

When I call him a sociopath or a psychopath I don't mean it in the sense of everyday use as someone who goes crazy and kills people. I use it to describe him as a deceiving, aggressive person who feels no remorse for his actions or for the rights and lives of other people.

I hope he dies. I hope either Rick, Michonne, Darryl, Maggie or Glen do it. Preferably in some Sympathy for Lady Vengeance payback scene.

I don't necessarily want to see him redeemed. I just wanted something more than "he's evil, soooooo evil". This feels more like a real person. Doesn't change what he has done in the past. And yes, I would agree he becamecdeceiving, aggressive without remorse for his actions, but I would maintain based on what milton said and what was hinted about his past, that he wasn't born this way, but chose to become this way like shane did. Or at the very least, the ZA has revealed something like this about him that he might not even known existed.

Whether he is a genuine psychopath, i don't know, not very interested in diagnosing characters with ailments, and that seems to be a very broad label applied to a wide range of cases. But frankly, if the issue is mental illlness, that isn't a product of his own choices and free will, to me that reduces the potency of the evil he represents. Now that could still be interesting. Tony soprano was clearly a psychopath, they pretty much explicitly diagnosed him in the show, but he was also a fully realized character. Merle obviously had some kind of mental illness going on, that drove his behavior (which was how I read the "i am a mystery to me" line. So i still think it might be interesting for the governor to have something so powerful inside him like that, that he may desire to overcome, but in the end cannot. But such a character is a bit harder to lust for vengeance over, than someone like shane who deliberately chose a path like that of his own free will. It is very easy for writers to just make you hate someone like that, but they are still supposed to be human beings, and i'd rather explore who this guy is a bit, so it is a lot harder than simply hating him.

I think we witnessed a descent last year, when we met him he'd already reached a evel of abhorence, but still seemed to have some redeeming features. After penny was "killed" he just fuly embraced what he was becoming. But I think killing his own people shook him up and he is re-evaluating things. That doesnt mean he'll be a good guy. He's done so much evil, for him to climb back to some level of human decency would take tremendous work and he'd still carry those crimes with him. My suspicion is he will get close, but like merle will basically decide he cant or doesnt want tchange or blame others (likely that girl dies or he uses protecting her as an excuse for his actions). Still i would consider a redemption arch satisfying as well. I guess I do personally still believe in redemption, so that is also likely coloring my impressions. I don't think its as easy as saying "i am good now" but like i said, they appear to be taking John Locke aporoach to identity and free will, so i would expect any redemption to be a rough process of reflection and slow inner change.

In terms of wanting to see him killed by rick or michonne, i guess i just don't have any desire for that. If the kill him, they kill him, but i dont feel a personal need to see him suffer. He is a fictional character so i justrhave a hard time getting too worked up over him. What i do like are the questions about identity, evil and change that his character is provoking this year. To me, it is a little more like brittish programming thac american in that respect. It is a little more ambiguous than, evil and good. And what evil does exist is a bit more complex and capable of change. Like i said previously, i just find that more interesting. Obvioulsy lots of folks feel very differently about the governor than me here, and that is fine, but, i haven't been this intrigued by a show's take on morality and character development for a long time. So whatever they are doing now, works for me at least.

 

[Ahnehnois]

When I call him a sociopath or a psychopath I don't mean it in the sense of everyday use as someone who goes crazy and kills people. I use it to describe him as a deceiving, aggressive person who feels no remorse for his actions or for the rights and lives of other people.

That's an odd what of phrasing it. In actuality, a psychopath (or a person with antisocial personality disorder) is fairly common. Most such people don't commit violent crimes, not because of remorse but because it is not in their self interest to do so. Conversely, many people commit violent acts but do not have this particular disorder; someone who "goes crazy" would be more aptly described as psychotic and may not understand the nature of actions they are committing (where as a psychopath knows exactly what he or she is doing).

What you're describing is actually the everyday use: someone who lacks empathy or a moral compass.