The Walking Dead 4.6 "Live Bait" (Spoiler Alert)

[NewJeffCT]

They were completely reliant on the food their father provided, they lived by his rules (e.g. still worrying about swearing), their lives focused around taking care of him (not their survival), and he was clearly the leader in their social hierarchy. The minute their father died, the Gov was in command; he not only killed the zombie dad, but buried the body for them. And the girls happily followed the Gov, trading a zombie-secured childhood home for blindly following the first man they met even though he had no plan or even a destination.

Seems to me that the zombie apocalypse is becoming a pretty misogynistic place.



That's basically the problem. There's really nothing that he can do that I care about. If they try to pull a redemption story, I won't buy into it because of how far they took him as a villain. And if he turns around after this and attacks the main group again, nothing is gained by seeing this side story. Either way, I just don't care about the Governor's story. I care about the main group. And breaking the plot into two separate stories at this point, especially considering the speed at which plots sometimes move on this show, is a major downer for me.

So, not swearing around the dying father is being submissive to him? I thought it was just them having respect for one of his dying wishes by not swearing around him and acting like they were acceding to his wishes. That old Southern hospitality thing. They were also surviving and taking care of their father for 18 months, so I think they were doing pretty well at both. Also, they had mentioned that the father had died a while earlier, which is why The Governor stuck around, to make sure a situation with him reanimating didn't occur - he probably knows it's a very emotional moment that at least some cannot handle.

I found it more bizarre that they were shut into their apartment for that entire time and were okay and almost no knowledge of the outside world. No looters, no pillagers, etc, after Daryl and Michonne said they had gone through every pharmacy and supermarket within 50 miles looking for food, medicines, etc.

 

[NewJeffCT]

They were completely reliant on the food their father provided, they lived by his rules (e.g. still worrying about swearing), their lives focused around taking care of him (not their survival), and he was clearly the leader in their social hierarchy. The minute their father died, the Gov was in command; he not only killed the zombie dad, but buried the body for them. And the girls happily followed the Gov, trading a zombie-secured childhood home for blindly following the first man they met even though he had no plan or even a destination.

Seems to me that the zombie apocalypse is becoming a pretty misogynistic place.



That's basically the problem. There's really nothing that he can do that I care about. If they try to pull a redemption story, I won't buy into it because of how far they took him as a villain. And if he turns around after this and attacks the main group again, nothing is gained by seeing this side story. Either way, I just don't care about the Governor's story. I care about the main group. And breaking the plot into two separate stories at this point, especially considering the speed at which plots sometimes move on this show, is a major downer for me.

So, not swearing around the dying father is being submissive to him? I thought it was just them having respect for one of his dying wishes by not swearing around him and acting like they were acceding to his wishes. That old Southern hospitality thing. They were also surviving and taking care of their father for 18 months, so I think they were doing pretty well at both. Also, they had mentioned that the father had died a while earlier, which is why The Governor stuck around, to make sure a situation with him reanimating didn't occur - he probably knows it's a very emotional moment that at least some cannot handle.

I found it more bizarre that they were shut into their apartment for that entire time and were okay and almost no knowledge of the outside world. No looters, no pillagers, etc, after Daryl and Michonne said they had gone through every pharmacy and supermarket within 50 miles looking for food, medicines, etc.

 

[PigKnight]

So, not swearing around the dying father is being submissive to him? I thought it was just them having respect for one of his dying wishes by not swearing around him and acting like they were acceding to his wishes. That old Southern hospitality thing. They were also surviving and taking care of their father for 18 months, so I think they were doing pretty well at both. Also, they had mentioned that the father had died a while earlier, which is why The Governor stuck around, to make sure a situation with him reanimating didn't occur - he probably knows it's a very emotional moment that at least some cannot handle.

I found it more bizarre that they were shut into their apartment for that entire time and were okay and almost no knowledge of the outside world. No looters, no pillagers, etc, after Daryl and Michonne said they had gone through every pharmacy and supermarket within 50 miles looking for food, medicines, etc.

Maybe they're way out of the way? I thought that it was weird that they knew nothing and they they hadn't been overrun because I don't think they fortified the place.

 

[NewJeffCT]

this is not what i hear from people like my wife and her friend who like the show, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just don't see it myself.



i felt it was in character for how she was developing. I think this all came from a place of compassion. And from a desire to spare other parents the pain she went through with her own daughter. Teaching kids to protect themselves, and not letting the other adults know, seemed in character to me. I think her decision to kill the people posed a risk to the rest of the prison was a crucial decision point for her. It was in keeping with her increasing sense of hyper vigilance this season.



i think they assume the audience is adult enough not to take those kinds of developments personally. The point about splitting into teams was people were torn on who was right, and it generated ocnversation after the show, which is good. I don't think carol was necesarrily in the wrong here. This is a very different world and she focusing on helping the prison survive. Ultimately i sided with rick, but I still think he went about it wrong. The development raised a number of moral questions that were compelling.




I don't think this is the case. You read it as binary. So far walking dead has been a very morally gray world. They can both be right in some respects and they bo be wrong in some respects. The outcomes are not necessarily commentaries ont he characters actions. If people choose to see what happens to each and every character as a commevtary on race or gender, then i think they are reading too much into it. Carol is an interesting female character and they taking her in a direction that is true to her development and advances the story.




which is why i also mentioned her moral strength. But combat strength is very importan in the walking dead setting. If inner strength is your measure, then honestly the prize probably goes to maggie or herschel for being the strongest in show. Rick is broken. Daryl only recenlty learned not to flinch when people compliment him. The governor is more broken than rick.



We obviously just disagree on Michonne. And i suspect we disagree on a lot of other issues (which is fine but probably colors our individual readings of the show). She started out cold like daryl and has warmed up considerably this season. I think she has been morally strong in opposition to the governor. Also her time in the prison she has been a centered character. And i think they did a much better job, and far less sexist, than how they handled her in the comic book. I think initially she just sensed something as wrong with the the governor. But when merle showed up to killl her, that is about all the evidence you need in post zombie world.

Sasha is one of the leaders as well - she's certainly more of a leader than her brother Tyreese.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Sasha is one of the leaders as well - she's certainly more of a leader than her brother Tyreese.

I would agree with that. She has shown a lot more strength and leadership than Tyreese and many of the others.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I thought this episode whiffed big time. I never liked the Governor. I didn't want to see them try to make him sympathetic; it's way too late for that. If they had just moved on and left him as a source of dread in the background, I would have been fine with that. If they had brought him back as a monolithic warmonger with no explanation, I would have been fine with that. I didn't tune in to TWD to watch the Governor find his humanity for an hour.

I'm also on board with not liking the portrayal of the family. They somehow survived for a year while being too afraid to go around the block and raid the old folks' home and outrun some geriatric walkers? No matter how many explanations they threw in, I just have a hard time believing that anyone who's still alive at this point is as inept as this crew was. And it was striking that they were all female, though TWD doesn't lack for assertive and competent female characters in general. I also didn't like how wishy-washy they were. It seems like they vacillate between (rightful) distrust of him and (desperate) trust of him. Every time he lies or does something violent, they briefly react, then rationalize it and return to normal.

Also, they introduced a new method of avoiding walkers. Just turn slightly as one is about to pounce on you, and it'll fall to the ground and wallow around harmlessly. A foolproof life hack for surviving the zombie apocalypse. Slight turns.

I suppose one of the reasons TWD stays on air despite uneven writing is that it always looks so damn good.

 

[Rabulias]

I believe this ep took place months ago compared to the last episode we saw at the Prison.

I am thinking one of two things will happen here:

1) The Governor will lead a new group of survivors and turn them into an army to rain vengeance on the Prison.

2) The Governor will lead a new group of survivors and somewhat redeem himself (as we saw in this episode) but something will happen and they will all die or cast him out, sending him way way out there on the crazy scale, and he will plan his revenge on the Prison by himself (maybe with some zombie herd help). When he was lurking about the Prison at the end of the previous episode, we did not see anyone else with him...

I do agree that the Governor is irredeemable in the viewer's eyes, but he is not irredeemable in his own eyes (er, eye).

 

[NewJeffCT]

However, I will say that I think before the end of last season, TWD did have problems with its portrayal of women. Back when they were on Hershel's farm, the women all stayed inside and kept the house running, while the men-folk went out and defended the farm, went to get medicine and supplies, etc. I think with Carol stepping up this year (and I'm almost positive she'll be back...), Michonne becoming more vocal and Sasha one of the leaders, the women are becoming stronger characters.

(the same with its portrayal of non-white characters until Sasha, Tyreese, Martinez and Bob Stookey have come along this year to replace T-Dog... but, that's another thread.)

 

[Joker]

Also, they introduced a new method of avoiding walkers. Just turn slightly as one is about to pounce on you, and it'll fall to the ground and wallow around harmlessly. A foolproof life hack for surviving the zombie apocalypse. Slight turns.

That was some Drunken Master Kung Fu Zombie Fighting Style right there. For a moment I thought we were watching Caine from Kung Fu trekking through the necrotic wilderness.

I too am on the side of not liking that the Governor is generating sympathy points. There was nothing morally ambiguous about what he's done. Perhaps he wasn't always a sociopath but now he is. The only thing keeping he momentarily sane and seemingly protective of those around him is the little girl/replacement daughter.
As soon as she's gone, either through zombification or by the hands of the new group, he'll snap and kill everything and everyone around him.

 

[Bedrockgames]

That was some Drunken Master Kung Fu Zombie Fighting Style right there. For a moment I thought we were watching Caine from Kung Fu trekking through the necrotic wilderness.

I too am on the side of not liking that the Governor is generating sympathy points. There was nothing morally ambiguous about what he's done. Perhaps he wasn't always a sociopath but now he is. The only thing keeping he momentarily sane and seemingly protective of those around him is the little girl/replacement daughter.
As soon as she's gone, either through zombification or by the hands of the new group, he'll snap and kill everything and everyone around him.

I don't think he's a very sympathetic character though. I don't feel sorry for him, but I am intrerested in the core question of the season which seems to be is there a point you reach where you just can't go back. That is why rick booted carol out, because rick appears to have been persuaded by creepy clara that once you reach a certain point on the path of shane, there is no return. After he talked with carol, i think he was convinced she'd reached that point. But i think the show may be suggesting rick is wrong. These are not people who were born sociopaths, they became them in a effort to survive and its possible there is hope or them. On the show there is no more extreme case than the governor. So if he can be redeemed, even in part, then that would indicate the others can as well (heck, If you rememberwhen rick killed shane he had already basically talked him out of what he was doing, and then he killed him). the one thing I really like about the show is it doesn't give us a simple view of morality. Holding on to your humanity is not only tough in the setting, but sometimes it hinders your ability to survive. You have to do some bad things to live and the challenge is not going off the cliff in the process (even rick has dipped into the sociopath pool occassionally out of necessity).