Thinking of returning to AD&D 2nd ed... Advice needed.

[TarionzCousin]

So, someone LIKED Player's Option then?

Yeah, some of the stuff, like you mentioned. We didn't use the new initiative system, or spell points.

Also, we were dirt poor. If someone bought a book and the DM (me) said "You can't use that" there would have been a mutiny. I just made the monsters tougher.

 

[Orius]

Yeah, re-reading some of the books here, I am seeing a lot of overlap. A lot of cross-compatability too. It's not inconcivable for a fighter to take the Squire kit from the Complete Paladin's for example. It's actually one of the things I quite liked about the kits. They added some flavor to a class, without (for the most part) unbalancing things too much.

That's why I pointed out Skills & Powers, its chapter on kits presents them for multiple classes, plus if you're using the NWP system in the book, NWPs that are parts of your kit cost one less CP to take, which adds another good benefit to using them. One of my late 2e projects was to take all the kits in the splats and stuff and set them up for use with PO. That got dropped with my compiled PO NWP list when I switched to 3e though.

You'll have to pick and choose, but then again "game balance" is a 3e concept.

Yet, there was a good deal of complaint in the Forum in Dragon back in the 2e days about balance, and I suspect there were online discussions as well.

Tome of Magic also introduces lots of new spells and items, and even the epic-level spells for priests.

I did say that ToM is practically core anyway, since a lot of people seemed to have it and it was frequently referenced. Also, it stayed in print over much of 2e's life, so it was probably in demand.

So, someone LIKED Player's Option then?

The PO line can be broken into two parts: New Systems and Tweaks. The New Systems, overall, were failures (CPs were too easy to abuse, the new initiative system was confusing, and the spell point system was just a lot of work). The Tweaks, however, were godsends. (New combat skills, a finally usable martial arts system, simple subraces and kits, a second stab at psionics, rebalanced spheres of magic and new specialists/divine casters all were amazing additions). Its also neat to see some of the proto-3e thinking going on in there.

Granted, I don't play 2e any more, but if I did, I'd make some of PO's changes mandatory.

PO wasn't that bad, but running it straight from the book isn't necessarily a good idea. It was presented as a collection of options anyway, so picking and choosing isn't bad. The DM does need to tweak things, particularly in Skills and Powers, if you want to it work well.

If Imperialus wants to use PO, I have one thing to say: DON'T USE SUBABILITIES. Thanael can say what he wants about balance being new school, but subabilities are so broken that they can be horribly abused, and there was a lot said in Dragon about this. The worst case is the ugly Muscle/Stamina subs for Str where a character with a 17 Str can pump Muscle to 19 giving a huge bonus to hit and damage by skipping the entire Exceptional Str section on the tables all while lowering encumbrance a little. Dex and Int are pretty bad too IIRC, but Str is by far the worst offender.

Custom building character races and classes isn't too bad, but the DM needs to make sure there are limits in place so the system works well. There's a lot of abuse potential in using CPs, and I suspect they're flaws that weren't really intended.

There are some good things to be had in PO though. The proficiency system is better than the original. The new caster classes in S&M are pretty good. The psionics rules are easier to use. Probably if I went back to 2e, I'd continue using the PO NWP rules, and tinker with the CP system to make it more like a proto-3e. In particular, I'd use PO weapon proficiencies similar to feats.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Probably if I went back to 2e, I'd continue using the PO NWP rules, and tinker with the CP system to make it more like a proto-3e. In particular, I'd use PO weapon proficiencies similar to feats.

If going that route, is there any benefit to using 2e? I avoided late 2e (i.e. the options books and even the earlier splats with the kits), so I have no direct experience to draw on, but my impression was that 3e does the same kinds of thing that late 2e does, but better. Why not just use 3e?

 

[billd91]

If going that route, is there any benefit to using 2e? I avoided late 2e (i.e. the options books and even the earlier splats with the kits), so I have no direct experience to draw on, but my impression was that 3e does the same kinds of thing that late 2e does, but better. Why not just use 3e?

You'd still get to use the other rules from 2e - initiative and spellcasting, saving throws, character class abilities, etc.

I think 3e does a bunch of things better than 2e, but 2e shines in a few places 3e is weak on balance. Saving throws for example. The 3e concept of Fortitude, Reflex, and Will is awesome. The basic implementation of strong saves and weak saves balancing against the spell level (strong ultimately being +3 vs 9th level spells, weak being -3) is a good idea. But the open-ended ability and other bonuses shows how the system can be tilted out of whack. 2e, when it gets out of whack, is almost always in a defensive way (saves too good) and that's better for games, I think.

 

[Imperialus]

If Imperialus wants to use PO, I have one thing to say: DON'T USE SUBABILITIES. Thanael can say what he wants about balance being new school, but subabilities are so broken that they can be horribly abused, and there was a lot said in Dragon about this. The worst case is the ugly Muscle/Stamina subs for Str where a character with a 17 Str can pump Muscle to 19 giving a huge bonus to hit and damage by skipping the entire Exceptional Str section on the tables all while lowering encumbrance a little. Dex and Int are pretty bad too IIRC, but Str is by far the worst offender.

Oh god yes... That much I remember... very distinctly and with the burning hatred of 1000 suns.

There are some good things to be had in PO though. The proficiency system is better than the original. The new caster classes in S&M are pretty good. The psionics rules are easier to use. Probably if I went back to 2e, I'd continue using the PO NWP rules, and tinker with the CP system to make it more like a proto-3e. In particular, I'd use PO weapon proficiencies similar to feats.

Yeah, I'm in the process of going through the PO books now and cherrypicking what I want to use.

 

[Orius]

If going that route, is there any benefit to using 2e? I avoided late 2e (i.e. the options books and even the earlier splats with the kits), so I have no direct experience to draw on, but my impression was that 3e does the same kinds of thing that late 2e does, but better. Why not just use 3e?

Well, I would perfer to use 3e, but who knows, I might end up playing with a group that wants AD&D instead, or maybe the group just wants to go retro for a change. It happens.

I don't really think there are a great deal of benefits to it. Mostly it would be using the better aspects of 3e's apprach to the rules with 2e's lower power curve for those who think the system is imbalanced. Also, I have a lot more 2e material than 3e material, so there's a lot more stuff to draw upon without having to convert it up to 3e.

 

[LeStryfe79]

I got some really good 2ed house rules. Otherwise, I'd go with Hackmaster.

 

[Imperialus]

I got some really good 2ed house rules. Otherwise, I'd go with Hackmaster.

Considered it. Hackmaster has too many moving parts though.

 

[LeStryfe79]

House Rules

I've attached some cool house rules I use, although the "core" rules are still necessary.

 

[Trevalon Moonleirion]

This thread has got me thinking again about running a 2e Players Option style game at the next Chicago gameday. I just stumbled across a copy of the core rules 2.0 cd too, so I've got RTF copies of the rulebooks, which makes me a happy man in terms of ability to look up rules quickly.

I too have quite a bit of nostalgia for 2e, as it was more or less the game that I grew up playing. Let us know how all of this 2e renaissance goes for you!