Thoughts on Proficiency and AC

[The Crimson Binome]

Interesting idea. The problem I see, however, is that it seems to "double dip" the durability/skill of higher and higher level PC's.

Monsters already double dip on their offense, because they get more accurate and deal more damage. HP inflation means that high-level characters can soak the extra damage, but that still means they end up getting hit more. If PCs also increased their AC, in addition to HP, then that would just bring it to parity.

Of course, given that high-level characters are still way tougher than they should be, it seems like HP inflation was "balanced" around countering both increased accuracy and increased damage. Monsters get a little more accurate, and deal a bit more damage, but characters have waaay more HP.

 

[pming]

Hiya!
[MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION] hmmm...I can see what you're saying and I'll take your word for it. In my campaign of 5e, nobody has managed to get a character past level 7, so I don't have first-hand experience with "high level" 5e play. That said, from what I see in the books, high-CR creatures tend to be solitary or at least not in groups of more than two or three. But again...no direct experience. I guess I'll deal with it all when/if anyone gets to 10th or more... ...and I'm not holding my breath.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Sadras]

If you were doing a low-magic, gritty game where PC's never gained more HP past 3rd level (or 5th, or whatever), then it would probably be a nice addition.

I ran this exact idea during the playtest - Hit Points were mostly dependent on size, modified by CON.

Small creatures never gained more than 3HD
Medium creatures never gained more than 6HD
Large creatures never gain more than 10HD
Huge creatures never gained more than 20HD
etc.

It ran well, but we only played till level 8 or so. PCs were obviously more cautious in combat.

 

[jmucchiello]

I ran this exact idea during the playtest - Hit Points were mostly dependent on size, modified by CON.

Small creatures never gained more than 3HD
Medium creatures never gained more than 6HD
Large creatures never gain more than 10HD
Huge creatures never gained more than 20HD
etc.

It ran well, but we only played till level 8 or so. PCs were obviously more cautious in combat.

If you cut those limits in half, 2, 3, 5, 10, it would be more fair to the small PC races. I doubt I would ever play a gnome or halfling when my hp total is always half of the medium races' total (on average).

 

[Sadras]

If you cut those limits in half, 2, 3, 5, 10, it would be more fair to the small PC races. I doubt I would ever play a gnome or halfling when my hp total is always half of the medium races' total (on average).

Agreed. Of course additional benefits would accrue to the small player races to counter the hit point limitation.

 

[jmucchiello]

I doubt small size benefits could offset -25 hps (or so)

 

[Hawk Diesel]

I already have a homebrew version of the Warforged that have a special Unarmored Defense-like ability where they can add their proficiency bonus to AC when not wearing armor.

I don't know that this would be good to do in general (as has been mentioned players are hard enough to kill as is). But I do like adding this to Monk and Barbarians. Replace their Unarmored Defense with 8 + Prof + Dex + (Insert relevant ability score).

 

[Sadras]

I doubt small size benefits could offset -25 hps (or so)

Might be tricky. It would probably be best to allow small-sized PCs to advance to 5HD.

 

[Dausuul]

Defenses don't keep pace with offense in 5E. Consider saving throws. You start with proficiency in two out of six saves, and you get (for most PCs) five ASIs over 20 levels. Even if you put all of those ASIs into stat increases, your average save bonus only increases by 2-3 points* from level 1-20. Contrast that with a caster's save DC, which increases by 6 points (+4 proficiency, +2 stat increase) over the same span.

So, I wouldn't allow more than half your proficiency bonus to AC. At that point, though, the increase is so slow that it's hardly worth tracking.

[size=-2]*Depending on how you weight the saving throws and where you put your stat points. If you average across all six saves, it's a bit over 2. If you only count the "big three" saves and put all your stat boosts into those saves, it's 3. And that's not considering feats, which can either boost your saves if you take Resilient, or reduce them if you put ASIs into feats that would otherwise have gone to increasing your stats.[/size]

 

[Ilbranteloth]

I've been nagged by a minor inconsistency in 5E. (Just one? for the purposes of this thread, yes, just one. Well, maybe two.)

When you calculate the DC of just about everything in 5E, you add 8 + ability mod + proficiency bonus, if proficient. But when you calculate Armor Class, you add armor value + (possibly limited) dexterity bonus + shield value. So what happens if you use proficiency bonus with armor:

Armor

Armor Type Light Padded Leather Studded Leather Medium Hide Chainshirt Scale Mail Breastplate Half Plate Heavy Ring Mail Chain Mail Splint Plate

Bonus +1 +1 +2 +2 +3 +4 +4 +5 +4 +6 +7 +8

Max Dex Bonus no limit no limit no limit +2 +2 +2 +2 +2 +0 +0 +0 +0

Min Str to use - - - - - - - - - 13 15 15

So a first level paladin in Chain Mail would have a AC 16 (8 + 6 + 2 + 0). At 5th level it would become AC 17 (8 + 6 + 3 + 0). At 19th level AC 20 (8 + 6 + 6 + 0).

Shield proficiency does not add proficiency bonus.

Can Rogues and Bards become Expert with their Armor? Probably a bit OP. But imagine the 19th level rogue in Leather armor and 20 Dex having a 26 AC (8 + 1 + 12 + 5). In a serious game, I would not allow this. But in a fun game, why not?

Might need to give a few pluses to the existing higher level monsters to compensate. And I know the system is supposed to avoid that kind of chasing the mean. But I like the idea of characters getting better at using their armor to their advantage.

That’s essentially what we use. If it’s a d20 roll then you either have proficiency or not, and they all use the same formula (although we start at 10 + ability + proficiency). Expertise gives you advantage instead of double your proficiency bonus. Armor doesn’t provide AC anymore. It’s damage reduction now. Critical hits ignore DR.

However, even if you’re just sticking with AC as is, you just need to figure out where you want the math to land and go from there . For example, since everything has a +2 or better proficiency modifier, reducing the AC of armor or natural armor by 2 means you start at the same place as now. It just gets better over time, up to a +4. Where you might run into issues are abilities like Unarmored Defense.