D&D 5E Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards 5e

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Oh, you are right. It's not really 3d6 but rather 6d6. But no damage on a successful save.

May I recommend Transmute Rock for that situation? It's area actually covers the choke and it doesn't require concentration. Even monsters that make their saves require a whopping 160 ft of movement to get through (3 turns for the umber hulks). You could follow up with stuff like polymorph to help the fighter or sphere of invulnerability to gimp all those wizards.

I would rate Transmute Rock green btw. Sure, 5th level is quite high for a spell that just restricts movement for non-flying creatures. But double difficult terrain means this spell works for 1-2 rounds even if a creature makes it's save. No concentration is also very nice. 4d8 bludgeoning damage if you happen to use it in a place with a ceiling is just icing on the cake.

 

[jgsugden]

After getting back to my actual wizard, I would like to start more discussions about spells

....About Otiluke's Resilient Sphere:
This spell seems really good in a vacuum because it is so versatile. But as an actual Wizard, you may want to cast polymorph instead if you need to save an ally. It seems like a much better proposition in general. You may also want to use other spells if your aim is to remove an opponent from combat. Using the sphere for that purpose seems like a bad idea, the same way you really dislike single target save or suck. If you really must have a save or suck spell, maybe something targeting an unusual save (Banishment/Phantasmal Force) or lower level (Tasha's) would be a better use of your spell slots.
On paper, the spell looks really tempting but when I think about what I would use it for, I find I already memorised other spells doing the same job but better.
...

There are three spells of 4th level that are pretty similar in very different ways: Polymorph, Banishment and Otiluke's.

A primary use of each is save or suck: If the enemy fails the save, you can take them out of the combat for a while.

Polymorph is a spell where the opponent is trapped in a weakened form if they fail a wisdom save until they can deal a damage to themself. It can also be used to buff an ally into a fierce physical form. It lasts for up to an hour, so it is the longest duration ... but it is also the one that most easily allows an enemy to end their suck. This is up to the DM, as these enemies will supposedly have the intelligence and wisdom of animals, so they will likely not understand how the spell works and understand how to end it in most games, although that is up to the DM to interpret.

Banishment sends the target off the battlefield. If they're not native to your plane, that can be a permanent ticket if you maintain concentration. If they are from the plane you are on when you cast, they are incapacitated while in a special little plane you make for them. If you combine that with some simple tricks, like lighting them on fire so that they need to use an action to put it out, that can add a bunch of damage while you're dealing with the other enemies. While it only lasts one minute, it targets Charisma rather than wisdom and when cast at higher levels can target extra creatures - warlocks, in particular, like that edge. In a pinch you can use it to take a fallen stable ally and remove them from harm's way. I once had my wizard banish the entire party when on an extra dimensional adventure to avoid a powerful area of effect - and then dropped the concentration to allow us to surprise the enemy a second time in the combat - it was an 8th level spell, but it ended up being a great use of the magic.

Otiluke's lasts only a minute and requires a dex save, but it is the best defensive spell for use on allies as they can continue to act normally while within the sphere. That allows them to heal up, wait for a charm spell to end, etc... However, it also allows enemies to scheme and stay involved with the battle by doing actions within the ball or moving the ball into bad places. Some DMs will let the monsters use the balls as weapons and roll over PCs. A significant limitation on this spell is the soize limitation. I house ruled to allow the spell to impact larger enemies by using higher level slots (huge for 5th, gargantuan 6th, and colossal (which I have in my game) at 7th).

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Oh, you are right. It's not really 3d6 but rather 6d6. But no damage on a successful save.

May I recommend Transmute Rock for that situation? It's area actually covers the choke and it doesn't require concentration. Even monsters that make their saves require a whopping 160 ft of movement to get through (3 turns for the umber hulks). You could follow up with stuff like polymorph to help the fighter or sphere of invulnerability to gimp all those wizards.

Transmute Rock to Mud is incredibly situational though. In the situation in question, they were standing on wood, not rock, so the spell would have done nothing at all.

I would rate Transmute Rock green btw. Sure, 5th level is quite high for a spell that just restricts movement for non-flying creatures. But double difficult terrain means this spell works for 1-2 rounds even if a creature makes it's save. No concentration is also very nice. 4d8 bludgeoning damage if you happen to use it in a place with a ceiling is just icing on the cake.

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

Is there any chance one could get a working link to the podcast treant is referring to in the second part of the guide? I am playing a illusion wiz in the curse of strad campaign, and as a relative new player i dont find any use for most of my spell. Therefore i would like to hear his tips on the podcast. Anyway, great guide!

You would find it here: https://orclabs.wordpress.com/

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

While on this subject, there's an analysis linked to regarding a particular spell that leads to a dead WotC forum thread.

I haven't been able to find what the analysis is about.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

If the spell is Erupting Earth - I don't have a copy of the analysis I did (that was eaten by the WOTC forum shutdown), but basically I compared damage by level for blast spells, and then drew a line from Magic Missile to Meteor Swarm to show how between levels 4-8 (increasingly as the levels increase), blast spells draw short of that line.

If it was another analysis, give me more specifics and I may be able to help.

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

I know you absolutely love Evard's since 3.5 (where it was really overpowered). But I would like to ask: Is the 3d6 damage really worth the two spell slots? It seems like web is very similar. Web allows only a strength check, not str or dex to get free and lightly obscures. It does need anchor points though. In my opinion Web is the overall better control spell and may deserve a sky blue rating. I'm not so sure spending a 4th level slot to add 3d6 damage to restrained creatures who might have an easier time getting out is worth it.

As Hemlock mentions, we are likely looking at more than 3d6 damage, however, I still agree with your point. I will consider both these spells, I've likely overrated Evard's, as I've failed to get the milage from it that I originally expected. I do think that the anchor point limitation isn't as bad as it once was (as you can now "layer" the web), but it isn't good enough for blue rating. I've downgraded Evard's to green. They are both good spells, but neither are standouts IMO.

About Otiluke's Resilient Sphere:
This spell seems really good in a vacuum because it is so versatile.

This statement seems odd to me. I usually consider circumstantial spells to be better in a vacuum. Versatility is usually better in actual play.

But as an actual Wizard, you may want to cast polymorph instead if you need to save an ally. It seems like a much better proposition in general.

I agree here - not because Otiluke's isn't good for this purpose, but because Polymorph is SO good for this purpose. Keep in mind though that it's hard for even other blue spells to compare well for their level to Polymorph, which may well be the best spell for its level in the game...scratch that. It is clearly the best spell for its level in the game. At level 7 you can turn your buddy into a giant ape - 157 hp and 2 attacks at +9 for 22 hp damage each. That's out of control good. If you are trying to convince me that Polymorph is better than Otiluke's, you are preaching to the choir.

You may also want to use other spells if your aim is to remove an opponent from combat. Using the sphere for that purpose seems like a bad idea, the same way you really dislike single target save or suck.

I am not a huge fan of single target save or suck (as it is an all-or-nothing proposition), and if that was the only use of the spell, I would be much less enthused with it. Keep in mind though there is more than one use. From a defensive standpoint, there are circumstances where it is better than Polymorph (particularly in self-defense). In regards to trapping an enemy, it's OK. Much better than single target save or sucks that provide a saving throw every round.

If you really must have a save or suck spell, maybe something targeting an unusual save (Banishment/Phantasmal Force) or lower level (Tasha's) would be a better use of your spell slots.

So we're comparing spells that do different things here, but there's a bit of apples and oranges going on here, but in all cases, I think Otiluke's holds it's own. Let me go through:

Banishment: First off, this is a good spell - in fact, I rate Banishment the same as Otiluke's. Banishment has the advantage of better save target, better versatility of targets, but lacks the defensive uses of Otiluke's. Overall - similar spells in value.

Phantasmal Force: Obviously, we have some targeting issues with spells that don't impact undead, but in addition, you can get a saving throw every round against Phantasmal force. Single target spell with saving throw every round...I was just mentioning that. In order for this spell to have the staying power of Otiluke's the enemy has to fail 10 saves in a row. Naturally of course, it also lacks the versatility, as does banishment. The difference in power between this an Otiluke's is pretty striking.

Tasha's: I love Tasha's, because it's pretty effective for a 1st level spell - but it is the ultimate single target save every round spell. This spell is really uncomparable to Otiluke's, as one would expect comparing 1st level to 4th level spells.

dOn paper, the spell looks really tempting but when I think about what I would use it for, I find I already memorised other spells doing the same job but better.

I'll take a memorized Polymorph and a memorized Banishment over a memorized Otiluke's If there was no limit on preparations. I don't think you are considering the value of spells that provide multiple functions. As you level up, determining which spells are prepared becomes ever more challenging. If you can perform multiple functions with one spell (even if each function is less dramatic than a single-purpose spell), this has signficant value.

I know there has already been some discussion about Phantasmal Force but if you rate Banishment green for targeting an unusual save and Otiluke's for it's versatility as save or suck, Phantasmal Force deserves a green rating too imho

Single target save or suck with a save every round that several creatures are immune to. I'm satisfied with its rating.

Edit: I needed to add the "if there was no limit on preparations" for clarity

 

[jgsugden]

If the spell is Erupting Earth - I don't have a copy of the analysis I did (that was eaten by the WOTC forum shutdown), but basically I compared damage by level for blast spells, and then drew a line from Magic Missile to Meteor Swarm to show how between levels 4-8 (increasingly as the levels increase), blast spells draw short of that line.

I think a lot of that analysis is found in another Wizard Guide here:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...neral-Guide-to-Wizardry&p=6707815#post6707815

Note that the average damager they show assumes a certain percentage of made saves.

One thing these guides do not delve into enough, IMHO, is the control uses of damage spells, specifically of area damage spells. When I cast an area damage spell, I'm usually doing it to clear fodder to open lanes for the fighters to get to the bad guys. Those fodder enemies are often more of an obstacle than a threat (although in 5E even a goblin can't be ignored as it can still hit reasonable AC characters at higher levels), so you're really removing a wall when you use fireballs to clear fodder undead, goblins, gnolls, drow warriors, lesser elementals, manes, etc... Don't get me wrong - I don't mind catching the big bad in the spell, but I am generally trying to clear his allies.

If you agree with the notion that these area spells are primarily useful to clear out the minions, then the question is how well do they do it? To do it, they need to do enough damage to take them from max HP to 0. To determine this, we need to figure out how many HPs these minions tend to have. Can you typically eliminate them even if they make the save? Only if they fail the save? Or can you typically not get them all with one spell?

At first blush, you might think that enemies are so spread out in HPs that it doesn't matter - some minions will be above and below whatever threshold you want to look at. However, there are actually some pretty common thresholds where monster HPs fall. CR 1 Monsters tend to have ~25 or fewer HPs while CR 2 creatures tend to have more than ~35 HPs. That leaves a 10 HP gap in the middle... and that gap is where a lot of damage spells fall. 8d6 from a fireball? 28 average damage. If you want to get that fireball up to 38.5 HP damage you need to use a 6th level spell, and that is only going to take out CR 2 monsters about half the time if they fail a save.

The thresholds I look at for average damage for minion sweeping are 28 hps (where fireball at 3rd is the gold standard), and 42 hps (where Vitriolic Sphere cast at 5th level, with a delay of a round for that second set of damage, is my standard - although chain lightning at 6th level is noteworthy). However, certain PCs, like a 10th level evoker, get to add damage to their spells which can alter this analysis quite a bit by making it easier to hit these thresholds. People mock the minimal extra damage that come with these features, but they can make a big difference in whether a spell is a good sweeper or just a waste of time that doesn't actually finish an enemy off faster.

 

[Gadget]

I would say that Time Stop is vastly over rated in the guide. Severe restrictions on what you can do and effect, most of the spells you would want to cast that don't directly affect others are concentration, thereby limiting the number of spells you can cast while in time is frozen. Sure, there are a few non-concentration buffs you might be able to get off, and you can pepper the battlefield with Grease spells, but other than that? It's basically a cast a 9th level spell to cast an additional non-9th level concentration spell in the same round (from an outsider's perspective). Would have been better if it was a reaction to cast, then at least it could be a: "The cleric just got disintegrated by the Beholder! <cast spell, drags statue over in front of cleric, or uses Mold Earth to raise a barrier in front of cleric> No he didn't!"

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

I think a lot of that analysis is found in another Wizard Guide here:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...neral-Guide-to-Wizardry&p=6707815#post6707815

Note that the average damager they show assumes a certain percentage of made saves.

One thing these guides do not delve into enough, IMHO, is the control uses of damage spells, specifically of area damage spells. When I cast an area damage spell, I'm usually doing it to clear fodder to open lanes for the fighters to get to the bad guys. Those fodder enemies are often more of an obstacle than a threat (although in 5E even a goblin can't be ignored as it can still hit reasonable AC characters at higher levels), so you're really removing a wall when you use fireballs to clear fodder undead, goblins, gnolls, drow warriors, lesser elementals, manes, etc... Don't get me wrong - I don't mind catching the big bad in the spell, but I am generally trying to clear his allies.

If you agree with the notion that these area spells are primarily useful to clear out the minions, then the question is how well do they do it? To do it, they need to do enough damage to take them from max HP to 0. To determine this, we need to figure out how many HPs these minions tend to have. Can you typically eliminate them even if they make the save? Only if they fail the save? Or can you typically not get them all with one spell?

At first blush, you might think that enemies are so spread out in HPs that it doesn't matter - some minions will be above and below whatever threshold you want to look at. However, there are actually some pretty common thresholds where monster HPs fall. CR 1 Monsters tend to have ~25 or fewer HPs while CR 2 creatures tend to have more than ~35 HPs. That leaves a 10 HP gap in the middle... and that gap is where a lot of damage spells fall. 8d6 from a fireball? 28 average damage. If you want to get that fireball up to 38.5 HP damage you need to use a 6th level spell, and that is only going to take out CR 2 monsters about half the time if they fail a save.

The thresholds I look at for average damage for minion sweeping are 28 hps (where fireball at 3rd is the gold standard), and 42 hps (where Vitriolic Sphere cast at 5th level, with a delay of a round for that second set of damage, is my standard - although chain lightning at 6th level is noteworthy). However, certain PCs, like a 10th level evoker, get to add damage to their spells which can alter this analysis quite a bit by making it easier to hit these thresholds. People mock the minimal extra damage that come with these features, but they can make a big difference in whether a spell is a good sweeper or just a waste of time that doesn't actually finish an enemy off faster.

My experience is that the big baddie with a bunch of soft minions was more common in 4e. In 5e I find a lot of big baddies by themselves, or groups of monsters of equivalent value (These are the situations I'm normally lobbing in a fireball). Sometimes there is a big baddie with minions, but this seems to be the exception, at least in the published 5e adventures I've run so far.

Encounters where minions create a wall that fighters can't get through is rarer still. I can't even think of a single example of that in any sessions I've played recently. Not saying it never happens, but circumstantial enough that I would never plan spell preparations to deal with it.

That said, when it does happen, you are right that fireball is the gold standard. Good range, better placement options, good area of effect, and no prep time make it a superior choice to the other options you mentioned most of the time.

Again, not saying minion clearing is a waste of time, or something not worthy of consideration. Just saying that it isn't as regular an occurance as it was in the previous D&D edition, where this is clearly the role of the Wizard character. In those few cases where the fighters can't get to the BBG because of a wall of minions, I would also suggest that blasts are not the only solution either. I'm just not sure its worthy of that much consideration in spell selection.

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

I would say that Time Stop is vastly over rated in the guide. Severe restrictions on what you can do and effect, most of the spells you would want to cast that don't directly affect others are concentration, thereby limiting the number of spells you can cast while in time is frozen. Sure, there are a few non-concentration buffs you might be able to get off, and you can pepper the battlefield with Grease spells, but other than that? It's basically a cast a 9th level spell to cast an additional non-9th level concentration spell in the same round (from an outsider's perspective). Would have been better if it was a reaction to cast, then at least it could be a: "The cleric just got disintegrated by the Beholder! <cast spell, drags statue over in front of cleric, or uses Mold Earth to raise a barrier in front of cleric> No he didn't!"

I'm inclined to agree. When creating the guide it seemed as good as it ever was, though I was inexperienced enough with concentration to not fully understand the limitations that would place on what could be done.

That said, there are some clever ways to use Time Stop. For example, consider a Contingency spell that activates "when the time stop ends", illusionist wizards can make great use of time stop when combined with Illusiory reality. Any wizard can find value from other illusions as well - Hallucinatory Terrain comes to mind. Walls can have nice synergy with Time Stop, as can force cage.

All that said, I still think Time Stop is a good spell, but I've almost certainly overvalued it. It should really be green, not blue....TIME STOP...and now it is!