D&D 5E Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards 5e

[Rofel Wodring]

I disagree on the utility of Slow. It targets WIS, which is the second-strongest save of monsters, and it's an EOTS. If a spell is limited by those two things, it needs to have a guaranteed effect even on a save (like Ray of Enfeeblement) or it needs to be a complete shutdown. Slow starts out pretty okay, but gets unacceptably weak around level 10 or so.

Watery Sphere is amazingly powerful in the right hands. It gives you multiple chances to disable, repositions people you don't like, and shuts down spellcasters. Seriously, trap a Lich in it and there's nothing they can do, unlike with Otiluke's Resilient Sphere.

Banishment is a good spell, but its obvious use (target fiends/elementals/celestials) is a bad idea. CHA saving throws are lopsided, but they're lopsided in favor of fiends and celestials. Elementals by the book (Myrmidions, Elementals, Galeb Duhr, etc.) have poor CHA saves however. And there are some fiends with bad CHA saves such as Shadow Demons. It's a good spell, don't get me wrong, but it's for disabling large amounts of mid-CR enemies, not BBEGs.

You should have both Counterspell and Dispel Magic prepared. Not right away, but definitely around level 9. Sometimes your party will fail a save against an upcasted Banishment or a Mass Suggestion or a Hypnotic Pattern cast outside of your Counterspell range.

One spell I don't see get mentioned a lot in guides is Ray of Enfeeblement. This spell should be in every mid-level wizard's arsenal. It completely wrecks BBEGs. Even if they save, you can just keep recasting it for near-guaranteed damage wrecking. I played a convention module where we had a Hero's Feast and this spell up against an Adult Green Dragon. There was nothing they could do but take it.

 

[Leatherhead]

I disagree on the utility of Slow. It targets WIS, which is the second-strongest save of monsters

Where did you get that information?

According to my research, WIS is the most common saving proficiency for monsters.

 

[Rofel Wodring]

Someone in GITP did a list of common saves for monsters > CR2. CON topped the list, with WIS, then STR, then CHA, then DEX, then INT.

 

[Leatherhead]

Someone in GITP did a list of common saves for monsters > CR2. CON topped the list, with WIS, then STR, then CHA, then DEX, then INT.

How long ago was that?
STR is the currently least common saving throw by miles.

 

[Rofel Wodring]

Keep in mind, however, that proficiency only tells half of the story. A lot of monsters have great STR and CON scores. For example, while the Fire Giant has charisma saving throw proficiency and not strength, their STR saving throw (+7) is still higher than CHA (+5) -- which is middling for their CR. For example, they have CHA saving throw proficiency, but a 9th level wizard can still expect to beat it >60% of the time.

This starts to level out due to bounded accuracy for the very high-CR monsters (CR >15) such as with the pit fiend. But for most monsters? You need to look at stat bonus + proficiency, which is what that analysis was based on.

 

[BigBadDM]

I disagree on the utility of Slow. It targets WIS, which is the second-strongest save of monsters, and it's an EOTS. If a spell is limited by those two things, it needs to have a guaranteed effect even on a save (like Ray of Enfeeblement) or it needs to be a complete shutdown. Slow starts out pretty okay, but gets unacceptably weak around level 10 or so.

Sometimes we quote things in a vacuum yet the data points don't match the actual gameplay stats. People can say it is not wise to choose a fire spell as it is the most resisted, but we do it anyway as they tend as fire spells do more damage. But let's take a deeper look at slow. While perusing the MM the number of creatures with multi-attacks is well over half the book (probably cloer to 3/4) and if they don't get multiple attacks then the rest of the creatures nearly all get a bonus action of some kind that is combat influencing of some kind. ; the same can not be said with Wis saving throws. But let's also look at those high Wis saving creatures--yes there are a lot of dragons, liches, beholders, and whatnot... let's not hoping you are not fighting mobs of them as slow is intended for solo use.

On avg you are going to affect 2.3 creatures out of the six you choose; with only 1 being affected the following round. That might not seem like much, but damage prevented is often on par to any spell (of similar level) that you might deal. Plus it opens high AC creatures easier targets for your front line fighters? I don't find that Slow gets weaker as you level up, if anything it seems to get more powerful as you are preventing higher damage output potential and your save DCs continue to improve.

Now is this all better than Hypnotic Pattern. In most cases no

 

[Rofel Wodring]

I don't find that Slow gets weaker as you level up, if anything it seems to get more powerful as you are preventing higher damage output potential and your save DCs continue to improve.

The thing is that as you level up, the more likely it is for monsters to have Actions that are both painful and don't require Multiattack. The, say, Behir and Beholder laugh at your ability to restrict their attacks. Slow's only good against hordes of low/mid-WISpure bruiser monsters or spellcasters with bad WIS saving throws. They do exist, especially when you first get Slow, but since they get more rare as you level up Slow also gets worse.

 

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

If your party is in melee with multiple enemies and you want to do the typical god wizard thing, Slow is your best option. Sure, catching them with Hypnotic Pattern is way better but there are situations where you just can't to do that (low ini, being surprised etc).

Watery Sphere is amazingly powerful in the right hands. It gives you multiple chances to disable, repositions people you don't like, and shuts down spellcasters. Seriously, trap a Lich in it and there's nothing they can do, unlike with Otiluke's Resilient Sphere.

Thanks for the input. But to be honest, I'm not convinced. Why spending actions to get creatures back into the sphere when you can cast a spell that does not allow for consecutive saves in the first place (like Hypnotic Pattern)? The forced movement aspect does not really convince me. 30 ft just isn't enough, most monsters can cross that distance and attack in one round.

Other then screwing low str casters, this spell looks pretty weak for it's level imho. Maybe for archers with some distance between each other in the woods.

One spell I don't see get mentioned a lot in guides is Ray of Enfeeblement. This spell should be in every mid-level wizard's arsenal. It completely wrecks BBEGs. Even if they save, you can just keep recasting it for near-guaranteed damage wrecking. I played a convention module where we had a Hero's Feast and this spell up against an Adult Green Dragon. There was nothing they could do but take it.

Well, you still need to hit. Against AC 19 assuming a reasonable level, the spell has a 40% chance to do nothing.

How long ago was that?
STR is the currently least common saving throw by miles.

A statistic looking at average save per CR would be much more useful.

 

[Kobold Boots]

Relevant text:

"A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds).

When a creature runs out of breath or is choking, it can survive for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum of 1 round). At the start of its next turn, it drops to 0 hit points and is dying, and it can't regain hit points or be stabilized until it can breathe again."


"The transformation lasts for the Duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. "

"If it reverts as a result of Dropping to 0 Hit Points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form. "


In this case, since the creature suffocated, it both dropped to 0 hp AND died, both of those things happen simultaneously when the creature involved does not have death saving throws. So, one could argue that the section on excess damage etc. does not apply. The reversion was not a result of dropping to 0 hit points. Similar to Power Word Kill. https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/0...-targeted-with-power-word-kill-dead-or-alive/

If it has death saves (like a PC), then it is converting back not from death, but from being reduced to 0 hit points, in which case, it has all its hit points. However, it is still "dying" - nothing negated that condition. Since it cannot breath, it cannot stabilize. Whether it is "conscious" or not is completely a matter of interpretation.



It's safe to assume you would only put in like 200lbs of water, so that when the transition back occurs, it more or less fills the volume of the bag. You can calculate the amount of air in the bag if you want, but really, the water is just a "fast and dirty" option. Could just as easily spend 10 minutes sucking out air with a straw, so that it has no air in it.

Ok, so two different things going on. The bag conundrum and the polymorph situation.

The one thing you're leaving out is that "specific takes precedence over general rules" Magic spells are where nearly all the specific exceptions to the rules are, so the effects of polymorph need to be taken literally. There's no interpretation to be had unless the DM says "Hey I'm changing this spell description to do this"

So if you polymorph a dragon into a mouse the dragon has 1000 hp and the mouse has 2, should you kill the mouse with a dagger that does 4 points of damage, the dragon will come back with 996 and you're screwed. That's the way the spell works and it's really not open to interpretation given the bag of holding conundrum.

Now the bag. You're limited to 500 lbs or 64 cubic feet which is roughly an amount of stuff equal to a box with the following dimensions 60.5″ x 42″ x 32″ (it's the dims of a gun safe a friend of mine has and it's been quoted as an example on 5e reddit) So anything approximating a live person is likely going to rupture the bag if it transmutes back to life from being a mouse in the bag. Of course, smaller humanoids are possible. Regardless a dragon in the example would be too large from the weight and size.

Hope you've got the ability to find your stuff in the astral and you don't get sucked in.

Be well
KB

 

[johnlent]

Yeah obviously I disagree about the first part. The volume of the bag is really irrelevant. You just do a goldfish without the bag. Suffocating does TWO things. Kills a creature. And reduces it to 0hp. If you believe those are the same thing I direct you to power word kill. RAW and Sage Advice agree, a wild shaped druid who gets PWK dies, then his corpse turns back to a druid, but it is a corpse. I treat suffocating exactly the same way for any creature not entitled to death saving throws.