D&D 5E True Polymorph

[Gardens & Goblins]

Hmm.

From Simulacrum

You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell. The duplicate is a creature, partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature.

From this I understand that a Simulacrum is a creature.

From True Polymorph:

You transform the creature into a different creature, the creature into an object, or the object into a creature (the object must be neither worn nor carried by another creature).

and then later

Creature into Creature. If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target’s (or its level, if the target doesn’t have a challenge rating).

From this I understand that True Polymorph can be used to create different creatures, not copies of a creature. A different level 20 whatever, but not a copy.

That's.. enough psuedo rules lawyering for me as the DM to nip things in the bud, with regards to trying to create a copy the Simulacrum, a creature, with True Polymorph.

Though I'd prefer to DM it by not letting the player know this - I think they should find out the fun/horrible way...

It's good to be the DM

 

[Fanaelialae]

You're the DM, so it's your ruling. I guess the question is whether you want a level 17+ player character to be able to create an army of powerful mages, using only 1,500 gp and a bit of downtime...

 

[Balfore]

It's for my bad guy ending.

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[Balfore]

Hmm.

From Simulacrum



From this I understand that a Simulacrum is a creature.

From True Polymorph:



and then later



From this I understand that True Polymorph can be used to create different creatures, not copies of a creature. A different level 20 whatever, but not a copy.

That's.. enough psuedo rules lawyering for me as the DM to nip things in the bud, with regards to trying to create a copy the Simulacrum, a creature, with True Polymorph.

Though I'd prefer to DM it by not letting the player know this - I think they should find out the fun/horrible way...

It's good to be the DM

The new creature also keeps their memories, therefor a caster knows all their spells, if there's an extra spell book handy.
Which other Simulacrum can be used to make copies of

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[AaronOfBarbaria]

You're the DM, so it's your ruling. I guess the question is whether you want a level 17+ player character to be able to create an army of powerful mages, using only 1,500 gp and a bit of downtime...

I'm not sure it's that big of a deal.

If you don't want the army of mages to succeed at something, just have their opposition use antimagic field or dispel magic, and simulacrum and true polymorph can be ended.

 

[Gardens & Goblins]

The new creature also keeps their memories, therefor a caster knows all their spells, if there's an extra spell book handy.
Which other Simulacrum can be used to make copies of

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Ah but it's a different, new creature! So no copies!

From True Polymorph:

You transform the creature into a different creature, the creature into an object, or the object into a creature (the object must be neither worn nor carried by another creature).

..and later..

Creature into Creature. If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target’s (or its level, if the target doesn’t have a challenge rating).

You can make a brand new wizard with all the memories of another wizard, but not a copy of the same wizard.

Hmm. That'd be great for some interrogation.

As the DM I might even focus on the 'another kind of creature' stipulation. Maybe I decide that turning a human into a human is a no go, as they're the same kind of creature, and not another kind of creature. Or not. We're hardly talking a legal document here, so we can run it every which way.

But hey, you're the DM and the spell is open to interpretation. Do whatever you want to enjoy/parse it however you wish.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I'm not sure it's that big of a deal.

If you don't want the army of mages to succeed at something, just have their opposition use antimagic field or dispel magic, and simulacrum and true polymorph can be ended.

Antimagic field is only a 10' radius and causes creatures created by magic (such as simulacra) to temporarily wink out of existence while within the field. In the case of Dispel Magic, each copy needs to be dispelled individually. So unless you've already got a clone mage army to fight the clone mage army, that's not a functional solution as far as I can tell.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Antimagic field is only a 10' radius and causes creatures created by magic (such as simulacra) to temporarily wink out of existence while within the field. In the case of Dispel Magic, each copy needs to be dispelled individually. So unless you've already got a clone mage army to fight the clone mage army, that's not a functional solution as far as I can tell.

Sorry, I wasn't clear as to what I meant.

I was meaning to say use antimagic field in the capacity of it turning an army of powerful opponents into an army of opponents whose best tricks can't affect you because you're standing in an antimagic field, and to use dispel magic in the way nefarious older edition adventure modules used it; as a trap at points this army of simulacra (polymorphed or otherwise) have to pass to get to you, so that at the very least you will have thinned their number if they are meaning to come for you before you've had more than enough time to notice and leave while they rebuild their numbers or slow down to deal with your dispelling traps.

Basically, my version of saying "If you aren't down with the result of spells your players have and aren't interested in just telling them "nope, that's not cool, let's do something else", you still have countermeasures at your disposal."

 

[Fanaelialae]

It's for my bad guy ending.

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Let's follow this through to it's logical conclusion.

Your BBEG is probably not the only (or even the first) wizard to reach level 17+.

A wizard who is level 17+ probably has a 20 Intelligence, or very near that.

Anyone with an above average intelligence can probably figure out the Simulacrum / True Polymorph clone army trick.

Therefore, every level 17+ mage has thought of this idea.

A level 17 mage is, by the standards of most creatures that inhabit the typical fantasy world, an alpha predator. That's exponentially true for an army of such mages.

If this isn't the first such rodeo, then two possibilities exist. Either the clone mage army was stopped cold (perhaps divine intervention or other forces of balance intervened) or everyone is a high level mage clone.

Assuming the later, it's possible that they grew so bored of each other that they crafted an epic mirage arcane spell that turned all of the clones into different people, and made them forget who they truly were. So everyone in the world, including your BBEG, is just a simulacrum of some ancient mage who has forgotten that he's a simulacrum. How very meta.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Sorry, I wasn't clear as to what I meant.

I was meaning to say use antimagic field in the capacity of it turning an army of powerful opponents into an army of opponents whose best tricks can't affect you because you're standing in an antimagic field, and to use dispel magic in the way nefarious older edition adventure modules used it; as a trap at points this army of simulacra (polymorphed or otherwise) have to pass to get to you, so that at the very least you will have thinned their number if they are meaning to come for you before you've had more than enough time to notice and leave while they rebuild their numbers or slow down to deal with your dispelling traps.

Basically, my version of saying "If you aren't down with the result of spells your players have and aren't interested in just telling them "nope, that's not cool, let's do something else", you still have countermeasures at your disposal."

Fair enough. My preference is to just tell them that their simulacrums still count as themselves (including for casting Wish) and therefore can't have a simulacrum of their own (because if the simulacrum creates a simulacrum the first simulacrum will disappear).

I still think antimagic field is too small to be effective (25' diameter). Maybe if you use a chokepoint, but against an army of wizards who can just Misty Step, its efficacy is questionable at best. Similarly, I believe that dispel magic used to have an area effect option, but in 5e it is a targeted effect only. As such, it's not much use as a trap.

You certainly do have countermeasures at your disposal as the DM. A mage creating a clone mage army could easily draw the attention of the gods (who aren't too keen on this mortal growing exponentially in power) or the forces of balance (I don't think this one needs explaining). Of course, if you let the BBEG get away with it but punish the players when they try to do so, your response might be less justifiable...

EDIT
Sorry, forgot one of my talking points. Antimagic field isn't really a great way to defend against magic. The clone mage army can just use Telekinesis to drop heavy objects on you. Since you're inside an Antimagic Field, you can't even use magic to defend against those attacks.