Using Immortals Handbook AND d20 Future

eduar

First Post
hi

well my problem with 4th is no infinite levels and only one paragon and epic path, i like more than one path for the same character, and i miss stuffs like wish

but 4th have awesome stuffs like AC increase with level, in 3th you need like 3 or 4 items to AC, 4th had great stuffs but for the moment i prefer 3th

like paradox say 3th==linux and 4th==mac (but recently windows, that's good)


any suggestion for increase mecha HP, in epic levels with that your mecha is disabled in one round
 

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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
I'd enumerate why I prefer 3.5/Pathfinder over 4E, but in all honesty I think the discussion is a waste of time, at least in this context.

You've already decided, U_K, that 4E is objectively, factually, and provably "better" than 3.5 - you don't see that particular discussion as being a matter of opinion, but of quantifiable factors which you've calculated and found to support your conclusions.

Quite simply, you've already made it clear that you're of the opinion that people who prefer 3.5 to 4E are operating from a position of ignorance, akin to people who believe the Earth is flat - they either don't know the facts that you know, or are inexplicably tied to a quaint viewpoint despite the preponderance of evidence in favor of the newer and better model of thinking (perhaps due to fear).

Given that, there's no purpose in having an exchange of ideas with someone who's decided that they're right before the discussion's even begun, because that's not a discussion at all - it's the other person humoring you, and it's patronizing.

I apologize if this comes off as harsh, U_K, and of course if I've misrepresented you, please let me know. But as it stands right now, I don't care to get into a discussion about the merits of 3.5 vs. 4E on the Eternity Publishing forums, because there's no real discussion to be had.
 


Rikandur Azebol

First Post
Wow, what philosophical dispute grew from my little comment about hating "Tome of Battle". ;)

But guys, let poor U_K like the 4ed ... after all he could be eccentric. Couldn't he ? :cool:

I believe that he, and I mean by that You U_K, would easily understand the difference from Player point of view when he would be able to play 4ed Thrin from lvl 1 and 3,5 ed one. I believe that I understand his statements about ease of creation in 4ed. Critters are simple mobs in this edition.

Not designed to challenge players with character demise, but to provide them with loot. IMO, at least it looks like that. Maybe I'm weird but I alvays tended to pretend that enemies of players were actual "people" even if it was just rabid dog.

It reminds me of situation that seems to be mechanically impossible to do in 4ed:
My character, variant fighter themed after kung-fu warriors from old Chinese movies, half-dragon going by the name of Jade Flame had entered gladiator match on Graz'zt's personal coliseum. To test him the Slave Keeper send pack of rabid demon wolves after him. Fortunately I won initiative and decided to make something outrageous ... thus my PC used feats "wasted" on Intimidiate skill and terrorized poor puppies into subbmission. Luckily for me DM rolled them extremely low Will save and wolves became my fighter's followers. Slave Keeper was so "impressed" that I got to keep one wolf. Don't know why everybody back on Fearun Were so pale when I strolled with it trough my adopted home city.

Okay, as far as I see the rule-flexibility/abusability my fighter would be unable to do any of that in 4ed. Would have to slaughter the puppies ... if he would be able to do that against 20 HD nasties. For the situation to work similiarly DM would have to make "divine intervention" because as far as I understand 4ed there would be no other options for my fighter.

Not to mention that I certainly wouldn't be able to create similiar fighter to one I made in 3,5 edition. Or later, how I would make magical template mimicking revised Paragon ? ( Take U_K's Amidah and divide all numbers by 5, remove Evil Eye and Alter Reality add slas of Hero-Deity) In 3,5 edition it was simpler ... I did some quests for Archmage being my ally and during this time he devised epic ritual spell for it.

I admit that I only played a little with 4ed ... have little patience for learning new system from scratch where fighters are giving me bad vibes.

Thus returning to question at hand, here's a riddle:

Can any of You imagine such thing in 4ed mechanics ... We have elf wizard, Titanic dragon and green guy with half-sword half-spear flying mayestically over the terrified Shrie ? To make things worse wizard, who previously visited our Earth trough interdimensional gateway, put illusion on everybody to make my PC look like Lord Vader himself as Emperor Palapatine and the Dragon was disguised as "Executor".

One of the fond memories ...

Now, rule wise ... is something similiar possible for Wizards from 4ed ?
 

Belzamus

First Post
The only other thing I'd like to mention on the issue is that the argument that role-playing in 4E is no different than in 3.x could be just as easily used with a game I used to play as a young boy, called "Make Believe".

Simply put, in 3.x, you had more information about how your character could interact with the setting, both in and out of combat, and had to rely far less on the whims of the DM to decide what you could and could not do.

To me, it seems like with 4E, you have two games really. Something in the vein of Champions of Norrath, and what basically amounts to "Make Believe with a referee" being run at the same time.

But, as I've said before, It's never been an issue I'm too terribly invested in. The fact that my DnD-playing days are largely behind me accounts more for my lack 4E-love, than anything else.

Edit- just an addendum, the difference that I see is that "Make Believe with a referee" in 3.x, the referee had a rulebook to base his decisions on, one which the players were intimately acquainted with. In 4E, it's just...whatever sounds good to him; you don't like it, Rule 0.
 

Hey guys! :)

Thanks for all the comments and welcome to the forums eduar!

Bit limited for time tonight, but I'll be sure to address all the relevant points raised tomorrow. ;)
 

eduar

First Post
Hey guys! :)

Thanks for all the comments and welcome to the forums eduar!

Bit limited for time tonight, but I'll be sure to address all the relevant points raised tomorrow. ;)

hi thanks U_K

with a pl higher than 10 what armor bonus give an armor and another gadgets?

and for new star ships bigger than colossal, like Death Star

any suggestion?
 

paradox42

First Post
My Metal Slime

What the Hells- as long as I'm posting tonight, may as well copy and paste my version of the T-1000 here into chat. I made it an Aberration, rather than a Construct, because I didn't want it to be an obvious robot, plus (as my Crazy Cosmology thread mentions) I did have a mechanism for creating robots that are genuinely alive (and I decided these things fit the bill). The difference between Construct and Aberration in this case is quite minor, because as you'll see, they're immune to critical hits anyway (and that's the biggest thing they're missing from the Construct type since they have INT scores).

Metal Slime

Medium Aberration (Shapechanger)
HD: 15d8+75 (142 hit points)
Init: +5 (Dex)
Speed: 50 feet or by form
AC: 25 (+5 Dex, +10 insight), Touch 25, Flat-Footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +11/+26
Attack: Blade +26 melee (1d6+15/19-20)
Full Attack: 6 Blades +26 melee (1d6+15/19-20)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Copy
Special Qualities: Amorphous, Blindsense 60 ft., DR 15/Bludgeoning and Magic, Energy Consumption, Fire Resistance 20, Freezing, Immunities, Polymorph
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +10, Will +14
Abilities: STR 40, DEX 20, CON 20, INT 15, WIS 20, CHA 10
Skills: Bluff +18, Diplomacy +2, Disguise +26<sup><small>*</small></sup> (+28 acting), Intimidate +2, Knowledge (Arcana) +20, Spellcraft +22
Feats: Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Critical (Blade)<sup><small>B</small></sup>, Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (Blade)<sup><small>B</small></sup>
<hr width="40%" align="left"> Environment: Any land or underground
Organization: Solitary or Team (2-4)
Challenge Rating: 17
Treasure: None
Alignment: Usually Neutral
Advancement: 16-20 HD (Medium), 21-35 HD (Large), 36-45 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: +10

Metal Slimes are strange and terrible creatures that consume energy to live. They prefer to consume magical and psionic energy, and are very good at finding ways to do it.

A Metal Slime in its natural state appears as a shapeless blob of silvery, half-liquid metal that resembles nothing so much as quicksilver. Metal slimes are rarely seen in their natural state, however, because they are capable of altering their forms to match other creatures, and can even somehow change color and texture so as to appear completely natural and identical to the original.

Though Metal Slimes resemble oozes in their natural form, they are intelligent, and a typical specimen can speak at least three languages fluently- including the local Common tongue.

Combat

Metal slimes typically do not reveal their true combat powers until the last possible moment, and opponents rarely realize what they are fighting until it's too late. Their metallic bodies are capable of forming blades within a fraction of a second, and they most often simultaneously form a blade and stab with it. Whatever else they know about other creatures, metal slimes clearly have a keen grasp of anatomy, because they nearly always strike their opponents in the most devastating possible spots (and with frightening precision and speed to boot). Though metal slimes normally prefer to hide their true forms, once in combat they show no desire to keep up appearances- they can form and fight with up to six blades at any given time, and never hesitate to do so even when the forms they were assuming clearly don't have enough limbs.

Polymorph (Ex): Metal Slimes can alter the outward shape and appearance of their metallic bodies, and can accurately form virtually any desired shape. This allows them to effectively Polymorph (self only) at will, as a standard action, though the ability does not seem to be dependent in any way on magical or psionic energy (they are still capable of it while in areas of dead magic or psionic static). Furthermore, a metal slime does not gain any hit points when changing forms as creatures normally do when polymorphing.

Copy (Ex): A Metal Slime can use its Polymorph ability to precisely mimic any creature or object it has ever touched, and can (in contrast to normal form-shifting powers) appear as specific individuals if it so chooses. A metal slime which hits an opponent with a Blade in combat will often use this ability to become a copy of that opponent, if that creature has companions which are helping it fight; if it does so, the creature's companions must make a Spot check opposed by the metal slime's Disguise in order to tell which one is the original. A creature which attempts to attack a metal slime which is copying another creature this way, without first determining which of the two is the slime and which is the real creature, has a 50% chance to hit either of them.

Energy Consumption (Ex): Metal Slimes can consume spells and psionic powers which create energy attacks against them- each such spell or power heals 1d6 hit points per spell/power level, with any amount above the slime's normal hit point total being gained as temporary hit points. Only attacks which cause hit point damage are absorbed this way; magic such as Charm Monster, which normally deals no damage, work normally as long as they are not already immune to it due to their natural immunities (see below). Also, this ability does not just affect actual spells or powers; even enhanced weapons or armor can be drained of power simply by touching a metal slime. Whenever an enhanced weapon hits a metal slime, it must make a Will save (DC 22) or permanently lose one "plus" of enhancement; the metal slime struck heals 20 hit points (and/or gains temporary hit points) each time it drains a "plus" this way. The save DC is CON-based. Special abilities such as Flaming or Ghost Touch are not absorbed this way, but a weapon which goes below +1 due to touching a metal slime permanently loses all of its special abilities along with the last point of enhancement. Likewise, a metal slime which strikes an opponent wearing enhanced armor, or which misses that opponent because of its armor bonus, can absorb the energy out of the armor unless the item makes a Will save as above. Each point of bonus drained from armor or a shield heals the draining slime just as weapons do. Enhancement bonuses lost to a metal slime can be returned by re-enchanting the item (as if it were being created or upgraded), or by using a Wish or Miracle spell.

Immunities (Ex): Metal Slimes are immune to disease, electric, sonic, and cold damage. They are also immune to force attacks and disintegration; force attacks heal the slime instead of hurting it, and disintegration (or Disruption energy damage) heals 1 hit point per die of damage the attack would normally deal. Any hit points gained in excess of the slime's normal hit point total are gained as temporary hit points.

Freezing (Ex): Though metal slimes are immune to cold damage, cold attacks that hit them deal 2 points of temporary DEX damage for every 10 points of damage the attack would normally deal. For example, a Cone of Cold which would normally deal 40 points of damage would deal 8 points of temporary DEX damage to a metal slime.

Amorphous (Ex): Metal Slimes have no organs as such, and have some of the qualities of oozes as a result. They are immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, and critical hits.

Blindsense (Ex): Metal Slimes, like oozes, use their whole bodies as sensory organs, and have Blindsense with a range of 60 feet. A metal slime does not normally need to make Spot or Listen rolls to detect creatures within range of its Blindsense.

Skills: <sup><small>*</small></sup>Metal Slimes have a +8 racial bonus to Disguise checks.
 

BrokeAndDrive

Banned
Banned
Nice little beastie you have there! Only things I'm wondering:

Str 40 = I don't remember the movie too much, but did he regularly throw city busses at the Terminator?

CR 17 = Erm... I dunno. He was a tough cookie, but he doesn't seem personally powerful enough to be almost as much a challenge as a balor or the tarrasque (each whom could probably survive a direct Hiroshima nuke according to Krusty's estimation). Then again, I tend to put CRs lower than most would unless there's a very good reason to. For example, I'd peg Optimus Prime to be nothing more than a CR 10-13 Huge living construct with an extraordinary ability akin to Wild Shape or a two-formed lycanthrope, and freshly-exalted Solars (not the angels, the PCs from the game Exalted) to no-level humans with an added ECL 15-20 extra stuff layered atop (template akin to divine ascension?). I mean heck, a party consisting of a wizard, cleric, druid, archivist, and a spell-to-power erudite at level 15+ is already compared to playing Exalted anyway! :)
 

Hiya Farealmer3 matey! :)

Farealmer3 said:
Well i'd dare say it's a case of the things you love about it being the things i hate. I guess it's because in terms of viewpoint we couldn't be more different. You look at it with the eyes of a game designer long sick of the design challanges you have to put up with in 3.X. I look at from the prespective of someone wanting to see cool powers

I thought 4E has tons of cool powers where 3E had relatively few.

and a design that isn't steeped in meta fictional planning.

In my experience most high level 3E players are power gamers to some degree and thus meta fictional in their planning of characters.

I don't like the loss of instant kill abilities:
Mythos monster had all kinds of stuff like that and it is really annoying they have safe gloved this aspect.

But were they ever fun - certainly not if it happened to you.

4E still has save or die mechanics, its just that they have a safety net of 2-3 saves before you reach the 'or die' bit.

I don't like the bland descrption of character abilities:
It was one of the things i enjoyed most about reading character classes, now it gone.

I don't think they are necessarily bland, I think maybe there are just 'so many' of them, that people just see pages and pages of abilities/powers.

Also, when the heck did 3E ever describe character abilities with anything like the same level of detail? Most classes in 3E barely had any powers, let alone flowery descriptions of said powers.

As well as not liking per encounter abilities(too metaish).

But only being able to memorise x spells per day isn't Meta-ish?

I don't like the forced balance for the character class:
Ultimatly few teams even in fiction are ever really balanced in terms of each persons abilities (unless thay all have the same abilities)

You are assuming Frodo, Aragorn and Gandalf are all of equal level.

Are fictional teams unbalanced, yes, but its because they have different levels of experience. Not because some classes should be more powerful than others.

The term 'level' means equal. Two Level 15 characters should be equal regardless of class.

You don't need to have the same number of powers as everyone else to be useful.

The more recent books have been more flexible with the number of powers.

But are you saying that a player who wants to play a Fighter cannot have as many abilities as a Wizard?

Thats why D&D is a table top and not a video game. You can do things video games simply aren't adavnced enough to properly detail. Like the previously stated things about fighters.

I don't see how having less abilities for a Fighter is a good feature?

Speaking of which i don't like fighters having all these abilities(which read to much the same anyway).

I think the problem here is that there are so many abilities for each class as default that it seems both overwhelming and also you start retreading the same material only slightly different.

But I am not sure if 'too many options' is a necessarily bad thing.

And i don't like the powering down of caster types

You don't like balance you mean. ;)

and the ritualization of there best 3.X abilities. It worked for D20 modern because it was low magic, D&D not so much.



But like i said as a game desginer who was sick of having to cross dozens of t's and dot hundreds of i's i understand that the above would all be a boon for you.

Absolutely.

But the last and the one thing i cannot overlook is it has basically eliminated the very thing that got me into D&D to begin with. The first book i got was the 2nd monster manual. I loved it, as a guy who reads nature books and similar stuff it felt like i was reading a nature book from another world. The descriptions where amazing and fun to read. Even with the advent of 3rd and the more technicalization of the monster descriptions it was still fun to read about the monsters and now that the abilities were seperate and outlined i also had fun reading those as well. However 4th edition has taken all the fun out of it. Alot of the info is listed under how many skill ranks tell you what about this monster and the monsters ability descriptions are nothing but tech specs. The complete opposite of what got me interested in D&D to begin with.

I agree Monster Manual 1 (4E) was a tad bland, but Monster Manual 3 (4E) is a good book. WotC have really listened to the criticism and changed the format.

And if that wasn't bad enough it's basically full of the things that ruined later monster manuals in 3.5 for me, the multiple entries for the same monster but each one being just a little different (class abilities added, stuff like that).

I love this approach.

Earlier editions always had this, they just hid it behind class levels or extra Hit Dice. Now the trick is to come up with some original power(s) rather than just tack on some class levels and Hit Dice.

So it has no interest for me. While it is a great for designers, for a guy like me who likes feeling like he's reading a nature book it might as well be digital code. Some people love reading code, i don't. Even the recent monster manual 3 was more of the same.

I can't believe you didn't like Monster Manual 3, its a great book. :eek:

Simply my take, nothing really objective but since it is a hobby, subjectivity is all that really matters for it anyway.

Absolutely. Thanks for the feedback mate.
 

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