reapersaurus
Explorer
I find this post by Kitana in the stickied Etiquette Thread incredibly ironic:
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The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Vampire: the Masquerade - The Sabbat [Rated R]
- Thread starter Ashrem Bayle
- Start date
KitanaVorr
First Post
The operative word there is respectfully. I'm not denying that it is absolutely reasonable to state your opinions or disagreements, but it is imperative that it be done respectfully. In a medium such as this where only words are available without the benefits of non-verbal communication, extra care must be taken with diction.
Your post with its choice of language came off as aggressive, high-handed, and incredibly American elitist. Whether or not you meant to, you deserve the benefit of the doubt, but please be aware that, for example, stating that the
doesn't come off particularly well, especially since the generalization is incorrect.
Hope that helps with the understanding as to why a few people were offended.
Your post with its choice of language came off as aggressive, high-handed, and incredibly American elitist. Whether or not you meant to, you deserve the benefit of the doubt, but please be aware that, for example, stating that the
doesn't come off particularly well, especially since the generalization is incorrect.
Hope that helps with the understanding as to why a few people were offended.
reapersaurus
Explorer
you are free to feel I phrased my questions too harshly.
Partially, there was an intent to that, that I would love to speak with Tokiwong more about.
However, the questions (I believe) are incredibly valid, and to concentrate on the style and not the substance of the questions and ignore them, smacks of dangerous ignoring of an issue.
I'll wait to elaborate on the issue for Toki's response.
And if you'd like to continue to discuss some of the issues I brought up about this game, I'd like to reply to your comment that the rest of the world in 1978 was better (read more equal, more inclusive, etc) than America.
I'm no historian.
But I'm pretty darn sure that the rest of the world for the most part is worse at civil rights, discrimination, and equal rights.
As far as I'm aware, the majority of countries are quite out front in their distaste for other cultures, and treat anyone non-native as a second class citizen at best.
Don't let Revisionist History that's all the rage these days convince you that the rest of the world is better than America.
edit: an aside - is it worse to post something that can be interpreted as American elitist (in this arena), or to post something that states that America is inferior (in this arena)?
Partially, there was an intent to that, that I would love to speak with Tokiwong more about.
However, the questions (I believe) are incredibly valid, and to concentrate on the style and not the substance of the questions and ignore them, smacks of dangerous ignoring of an issue.
I'll wait to elaborate on the issue for Toki's response.
And if you'd like to continue to discuss some of the issues I brought up about this game, I'd like to reply to your comment that the rest of the world in 1978 was better (read more equal, more inclusive, etc) than America.
I'm no historian.
But I'm pretty darn sure that the rest of the world for the most part is worse at civil rights, discrimination, and equal rights.
As far as I'm aware, the majority of countries are quite out front in their distaste for other cultures, and treat anyone non-native as a second class citizen at best.
Don't let Revisionist History that's all the rage these days convince you that the rest of the world is better than America.
edit: an aside - is it worse to post something that can be interpreted as American elitist (in this arena), or to post something that states that America is inferior (in this arena)?
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KitanaVorr
First Post
I agree that in every country there is discrimination in varying forms and intensity. However I do disagree that the United States is any less discriminatory in its policies than any other European country. The United States is infamous for its own revisionist history policies, especially regarding parts of history it doesn't want to remember (native american massacres, japanese internment, segregation).
To focus on Spain since it's the locale for this game, near the end of the 1970's is when many of the discriminatory legistations were abolished thanks to Franco's death in 1975 and the beginning of the consitutional monarchy in 1978. 1977 saw 22 women ascend to the Spanish parliament. The United States had 3 senators, 23 representatives and our democracy has been around much longer.
1978 saw the abolishment of the anti-gypsy legistation and allowed them to be come full citizens. Although they still suffer problems similiar to what the Hispanic and Affrican-American populations did in the United States at the time. They do not have the same access to education or to the job market and they are very much dependent on social services despite civil rights legistation.
As for women's prescence in the time period, the British had Margaret Thatcher(1979-1990) and even very male dominated cultures such as India (Indira Gandhi - 1966-1977) have had female leaders. We have yet to have a female president or vice-president.
I don't believe that the United States is inferior, but neither do I think that the United States is superior either. We have many faults and a very spotty history, just as spotty and bloodied as any other country.
EDIT: For any moderators, this is just background information for the game (Barcelona-1978), not a political discussion extravganaza! Please don't close the thread.
To focus on Spain since it's the locale for this game, near the end of the 1970's is when many of the discriminatory legistations were abolished thanks to Franco's death in 1975 and the beginning of the consitutional monarchy in 1978. 1977 saw 22 women ascend to the Spanish parliament. The United States had 3 senators, 23 representatives and our democracy has been around much longer.
1978 saw the abolishment of the anti-gypsy legistation and allowed them to be come full citizens. Although they still suffer problems similiar to what the Hispanic and Affrican-American populations did in the United States at the time. They do not have the same access to education or to the job market and they are very much dependent on social services despite civil rights legistation.
As for women's prescence in the time period, the British had Margaret Thatcher(1979-1990) and even very male dominated cultures such as India (Indira Gandhi - 1966-1977) have had female leaders. We have yet to have a female president or vice-president.
I don't believe that the United States is inferior, but neither do I think that the United States is superior either. We have many faults and a very spotty history, just as spotty and bloodied as any other country.
EDIT: For any moderators, this is just background information for the game (Barcelona-1978), not a political discussion extravganaza! Please don't close the thread.
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reapersaurus
Explorer
hmm.. let me try to follow this.
A general statement of mine, to point out how different playing in Spain would be from what most of us are familiar with (Americans), is restated by you as being American elitist.
You confirm that the 'rest of the world' is not worse than America re: civil rights, etc.
Then I state my belief that the majority of the world IS worse (in this regard).
Then you bring up specific Spain-centric historical research, and refer to 2 other examples (England & India).
How is Spain + 2 specific examples a refutal of my general statement about America as it compares to the majority of the world?
I'm sure that if I wished (and had time/interest), I could bring up 200 examples of countries in the world 1978 that were worse than America in this arena. I'm not exagerrating.
In retrospect, I'd like to clarify something that may be mistaken perception:
I am not an "American elitist", whatever that may mean technically.
That was Kitana's term, in reference to a general comparison of historical world human rights issues circa 1978.
And I doubt that the board distaste for political discussion directly applies to In-Character discussion of world politics in a period adventure game, and I think we should wait for something to actually flare up, and/or a moderator posts something, to proactively censor/shut down interesting discussion.
edit: personally, I am so anti-political, that there's really no way I can persaonlly get very worked up over political discussion.
Now, discussion about how modern-day perception and beliefs that America tries to hide its past violations, etc, and how America is 'just as bad' as other countries, I will sink into like a triple-cheeseburger and curly fries.
A general statement of mine, to point out how different playing in Spain would be from what most of us are familiar with (Americans), is restated by you as being American elitist.
You confirm that the 'rest of the world' is not worse than America re: civil rights, etc.
Then I state my belief that the majority of the world IS worse (in this regard).
Then you bring up specific Spain-centric historical research, and refer to 2 other examples (England & India).
How is Spain + 2 specific examples a refutal of my general statement about America as it compares to the majority of the world?
I'm sure that if I wished (and had time/interest), I could bring up 200 examples of countries in the world 1978 that were worse than America in this arena. I'm not exagerrating.
In retrospect, I'd like to clarify something that may be mistaken perception:
I am not an "American elitist", whatever that may mean technically.
That was Kitana's term, in reference to a general comparison of historical world human rights issues circa 1978.
And I doubt that the board distaste for political discussion directly applies to In-Character discussion of world politics in a period adventure game, and I think we should wait for something to actually flare up, and/or a moderator posts something, to proactively censor/shut down interesting discussion.
edit: personally, I am so anti-political, that there's really no way I can persaonlly get very worked up over political discussion.
Now, discussion about how modern-day perception and beliefs that America tries to hide its past violations, etc, and how America is 'just as bad' as other countries, I will sink into like a triple-cheeseburger and curly fries.
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Ashrem Bayle
Explorer
I have to say, I'm a little torn myself.
One one hand, I really want to get into a good Sabbat game. I have for some time. I think this game has a lot of potential.
On the other hand....
I know absolutely jack about the setting. I know little to nothing about Spain today, much less Spain as it was a year before I was born. I realized I was in trouble when I couldn't come up with what kind of car my character would have.
Looking at my character's background, I said his personality was "blood, soul, and rock and roll". But, now that I think about it, did they even have rock and roll in '78 Spain? I could look all this up I suppose, but I really don't have time to break out the text books.
Also, I'm a big fan of merits and flaws myself (especially with only half the freebie points we are supposed to get), but that really is up to Toki. Heck, if I remember right, it was presented as optional material to begin with. *shrug* I just thought I would throw my vote in in case Toki was even considering it. Nothing wrong with not using them though. I can get by. This really isn't a big deal.
Simply put, I am having a hard time deciding if I want to spend a lot of time studying up on a time period, culture, city, and country that I have little to no interest in so I can play in a game I've been drooling over for the last year. Not to mention the fact that I'm already in too many games. Decisions.... decisions....
Again, nothing wrong with what you are trying to do Toki, I just can't decide if it's for me. By all means, run the game you want to run.
One one hand, I really want to get into a good Sabbat game. I have for some time. I think this game has a lot of potential.
On the other hand....
I know absolutely jack about the setting. I know little to nothing about Spain today, much less Spain as it was a year before I was born. I realized I was in trouble when I couldn't come up with what kind of car my character would have.
Looking at my character's background, I said his personality was "blood, soul, and rock and roll". But, now that I think about it, did they even have rock and roll in '78 Spain? I could look all this up I suppose, but I really don't have time to break out the text books.
Also, I'm a big fan of merits and flaws myself (especially with only half the freebie points we are supposed to get), but that really is up to Toki. Heck, if I remember right, it was presented as optional material to begin with. *shrug* I just thought I would throw my vote in in case Toki was even considering it. Nothing wrong with not using them though. I can get by. This really isn't a big deal.
Simply put, I am having a hard time deciding if I want to spend a lot of time studying up on a time period, culture, city, and country that I have little to no interest in so I can play in a game I've been drooling over for the last year. Not to mention the fact that I'm already in too many games. Decisions.... decisions....
Again, nothing wrong with what you are trying to do Toki, I just can't decide if it's for me. By all means, run the game you want to run.
Jemal
Adventurer
Shalimar said:
First off, this is the only message I can see that shows a lack of respect.
All of Reapers questions were EXACTLY that... questions. they way they were asked may sound to you (And/or others) as if they are undiplomatic, but well that's too bad.
You do NOT have the right to apologize for the fact that Reaper has concerns+Questions. If Toki feels they are disrespectful, he will say that. If reaper THEN feels like apoligizing, he can do it himself. You apologizing for him before toki has even had a chance to say anything about it is a patronizing, "i know better than him" attitude. IMO You should be apologizing TO reaper, not for him. but of course I'm not going to tell you to do that, b/c it's Reaper you've been demeaning, not me. If he wants an apology from you he'll ask for one, just like if Toki wants an apology from Reaper, HE will ask for one.
Think about what you'ld feel like If I told Reaper "I apologize for Shalimars utter lack of respect and her patronizign attitude".
Doesn't feel good, does it? To have someone else tell you that your opinion is wrong.
Now I like to think that we're all fairly friendly around here(Even friends have arguments.. sometimes HEATED arguments), and I'm sure we can work this out. The easiest way I can see is to not ignore questions b/c you don't think the person asking them deserves an answer.
i'ld also like to say that I also know less than nothing about 1978 Barcellona, most certainly not enough to make a character for it that would seem 'real'. All I can do would be to come up with (As I'm attempting) a concept that would fit in fairly well anywhere at any time.
HEll, the only time I've ever heard of Barcellona before was when Eminem was on tour there.
I do not, by any means, disagree with everything Toki's doing. In fact, i don't 'disagree' with him on anything, I am simply stating that i know nothing about the setting and it is thus a bit of a struggle to come up with a character. I am, however, trying. I would also like to say that I agree with him on the Merits+Flaws thing, I never quite liked them. I feel it's a complex enough game without them, they're more for flavour than anything else IMO.
On 1 final note:
Kit + Reap, pls stop talking politics before a mod shuts the thread down. (And yes, discussions on whether or not America's civil rights are better than other countries is a VERY political topic with LOTS of feelings about it.) If not for the fact that I've been chastised repeatedly for making political coments on these boards I'ld be right in there with you guys, but If I say any more political things I'm likely to be banned from the boards.
I know kit posted that little 'disclaimer' but I'ld rather not take any chances unless a mod actually posts that what you two are doing is ok.
If you guys wanna keep talking about this, lets go to a board we can get into it deep, I'ld LOVE the chance to discuss this very issue.
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Jemal
Adventurer
One more thing..
You somehow know that everyone else likes it exactly as is? Obviously they don't, 3 of us have expressed that we would like to discuss possible changes.
ANYONE?
Please don't accuse one person of speaking for everyone when he doesn't know what they think, and then go and do the same thing yourself.
You do not know whos opinions are represented in a message, except whether or not they respresent your OWN.
This message is aimed at everyone.
PLEASE SPEAK FOR YOUR SELF
KitanaVorr said:
You somehow know that everyone else likes it exactly as is? Obviously they don't, 3 of us have expressed that we would like to discuss possible changes.
ANYONE?
Please don't accuse one person of speaking for everyone when he doesn't know what they think, and then go and do the same thing yourself.
You do not know whos opinions are represented in a message, except whether or not they respresent your OWN.
This message is aimed at everyone.
PLEASE SPEAK FOR YOUR SELF
Shalimar
First Post
Ok, heres a thought, all those willing to play in the Game Tokiwong offered to run, please raise your hands. Those who don't have your hands raised, find another Storyteller. He made an offer to do one thing, and you have basically all said you don't want to play in such a game and are now expecting him to change that, because of what you want.
Jemal, I wasn't apologizing FOR Reapersaurus, I was apologizing because of him. I am sorry if understanding the distinction is beyond you. His statements linked all of us together as a gaming group, and while that is not incorrect, the way in which those statements were made was an embaressment to me as a member of the group he is claiming to represent. I apologized out of embaressment that the rudeness could have appeared to have come from me in any matter if even only through the tenous link that Kitana, Ash, Catulle, Reap, and Tory share.
And you somehow have the right to dictate to the story-teller? If I was Tokiwong I would withdraw the offer post-haste due to the rudeness shown to him, and the pettyness that has been shown on all sides. He would truly need to be a saint to want to put up with this group after the embarressing showing we have made of ourselves.
As much as I wish to play in the game that Tokiwong actually offered to run for us, I refuse to play in it with a certain party. The person I am speaking of isn't even really a player in our other Vampire game, he posts very rarely maybe once every 2 or 3 weeks or so and in the interim where he leaves other players hanging Barry is forced to treat the character as an NPC(playing the character much better I might add).
I really do want to ask everyone one question though, and it goes back to my main point. DMs post their ideas in this forum all the time, they ask for people who are intereseted to post and join in. You wouldn't jump into a GMs recruiting thread and tell him to change his game and change the game rules would you? NO, you would just think about whether or not you were fine with the limitation, if not you would just give the game a pass and not play. Its always been your option to take a pass on the game if its one you didn't like. Nothing gives anyone the right to just tell the storyteller to change his game, they don't have to play it.
Tokiwong, I am truly sorry for any offense that this group may have presented you, and for any that I personally caused. Please don't think poorly of all of us who play in the Camarilla vampire game. I know I let my indignaion overwhelm my good manners in reaction to what has been said, and for that I am truly sorry.
Jemal, I wasn't apologizing FOR Reapersaurus, I was apologizing because of him. I am sorry if understanding the distinction is beyond you. His statements linked all of us together as a gaming group, and while that is not incorrect, the way in which those statements were made was an embaressment to me as a member of the group he is claiming to represent. I apologized out of embaressment that the rudeness could have appeared to have come from me in any matter if even only through the tenous link that Kitana, Ash, Catulle, Reap, and Tory share.
And you somehow have the right to dictate to the story-teller? If I was Tokiwong I would withdraw the offer post-haste due to the rudeness shown to him, and the pettyness that has been shown on all sides. He would truly need to be a saint to want to put up with this group after the embarressing showing we have made of ourselves.
As much as I wish to play in the game that Tokiwong actually offered to run for us, I refuse to play in it with a certain party. The person I am speaking of isn't even really a player in our other Vampire game, he posts very rarely maybe once every 2 or 3 weeks or so and in the interim where he leaves other players hanging Barry is forced to treat the character as an NPC(playing the character much better I might add).
I really do want to ask everyone one question though, and it goes back to my main point. DMs post their ideas in this forum all the time, they ask for people who are intereseted to post and join in. You wouldn't jump into a GMs recruiting thread and tell him to change his game and change the game rules would you? NO, you would just think about whether or not you were fine with the limitation, if not you would just give the game a pass and not play. Its always been your option to take a pass on the game if its one you didn't like. Nothing gives anyone the right to just tell the storyteller to change his game, they don't have to play it.
Tokiwong, I am truly sorry for any offense that this group may have presented you, and for any that I personally caused. Please don't think poorly of all of us who play in the Camarilla vampire game. I know I let my indignaion overwhelm my good manners in reaction to what has been said, and for that I am truly sorry.
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