D&D (2024) Warlock

[doctorbadwolf]

my design goal for the warlock is that your PC may be a good person, but he/she is still using BAD guy toys to do it)

I respect this, but I’m glad it isn’t the design goal of the class as it is written now, because it’s not what I want from the class. It’s definitely one way to play the class, obviously, but all my warlocks since 3.5 have been people who break the rules of magic, hacking the code of arcane formulae, invoking and binding power into themselves and their tools, etc, and thier patron is either a mentor (usually with ambiguous personal goals and priorities) or a being they called into a circle of invocation and sacrificed something in exchange for the knowledge of how to bypass the structures and rules that bind other spellcasters.

 

[mellored]

I don’t understand the idea of making pact magic an invocation rather than just keeping it how it is?

You can't use them for smite, sorcerer points, or crono wizard casting cat nap.
Also, it just allows you to customize more. If you just want to Eldritch Blast, you can ignore the spells. Or if you want more spells, you can get them.

Patron curses are unlikely, I think, because then all supplemental subclasses either suck or need errata. They could add invocations for it, though.

Fair.
Archfey Hex could work as an invocation.

I have said before I think warlocks should get hex like rangers get hunters mark and then also a warlock’s curse feature that lets you do extra stuff whenever you curse a target, which includes hex, various other spells that describe themselves as a curse, Hexblades curse, etc.

Agreed. Warlocks should curse stuff. Both for in and out of combat.

I’d tie them to pact boon rather than patron, so if you have a tome, you get some super mage-y extra effect, Blade gets THP when the target takes damage, chain allows the familiar to deal extra damage to the target as well, and errata Talisman to allow you to heal an ally when a cursed target hits 0hp.

Seems more flavorful to have them as part of your patron than the pact.

But hey. Archfey's Hex and Blade's Hex can both be invocations.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You can't use them for smite, sorcerer points, or crono wizard casting cat nap.

IMO it’s a mistake to design classes around locking out multiclass “cheese”.

Also, it just allows you to customize more. If you just want to Eldritch Blast, you can ignore the spells. Or if you want more spells, you can get them.

It’s a huge increase in complexity, for a fairly small boost in customization, IMO.

Fair.
Archfey Hex could work as an invocation.


Agreed. Warlocks should curse stuff. Both for in and out of combat.

Seems more flavorful to have them as part of your patron than the pact.

But hey. Archfey's Hex and Blade's Hex can both be invocations.

Yeah I also think the pact boon should hold more of the class’s focus than it does, anyway, so just different priorities and goals.

 

[mellored]

IMO it’s a mistake to design classes around locking out multiclass “cheese”.

Lots of design choices are made with the assumption that spells are daily things. Like ring of spell storing.

It’s a huge increase in complexity, for a fairly small boost in customization, IMO.

Not sure how it's more complex. Pick a spell, cast it 1/short rest at 1/2 your warlock level.

Seems less complicated overall IMO, since you drop the entire multiclass pact magic paragraph.

I mean, I litterally copied it from the Fey Touched feat. Though the new wording from the playtest is a bit cleaner. This if from the Tiefling/Elf.

Select an arcane spell of half your warlock level (minimum 1). You can cast the spell at a spell level equal to your warlock level (minimum 1).
Once you cast the Spell with this invocation, you can’t cast that Spell with it again until you finish a Shory or Long Rest; however, you can cast the Spell using any Spell Slots you have of the appropriate level.

 

[mellored]

Well... I just realized that my particular wording would let warlocks cast foresight per short rest...

So maybe not that exactly wording, and even if not an invocation. Something along those lines that avoids "slots" would be good.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

My take:

lvl 1: Patron extra spells, Eldritch blast, Pact magic
lvl 2: Invocations
lvl 3: Pact Boons (archetypes)


So yeah, the warlock 3rd level archetypes are not based on the Patron, but on the boon they get from them.
In order to do so, I'd take the Boon-specific Invocations to create the archetypes' features and instead take the old archetypes' features and use them as Patron-specific Invocations.

 

[Knight_Marshal]

The patron has to be 1st level or the warlock has no powers. They can give minor things at 1st and the main part of the features can start at third.

The same problem is going to be with sorcerers. Without their subclass, the have no powers.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Lots of design choices are made with the assumption that spells are daily things. Like ring of spell storing.

Sure. They aren’t the basic Spellcasting model of a whole class.

Not sure how it's more complex. Pick a spell, cast it 1/short rest at 1/2 your warlock level.

Seems less complicated overall IMO, since you drop the entire multiclass pact magic paragraph.

I don’t care about multiclassing. It is not important when designing the fundamentals of a class.

I mean, I litterally copied it from the Fey Touched feat. Though the new wording from the playtest is a bit cleaner. This if from the Tiefling/Elf.

Select an arcane spell of half your warlock level (minimum 1). You can cast the spell at a spell level equal to your warlock level (minimum 1).
Once you cast the Spell with this invocation, you can’t cast that Spell with it again until you finish a Shory or Long Rest; however, you can cast the Spell using any Spell Slots you have of the appropriate level.

And then to have the same level of Spellcasting as a 2014 warlock, you spend have to track each one on its own, you can’t cast the same spell twice (a decrease in versatility), and you can easily end up with way more Spellcasting than is balanced for short rest spell recharge unless there is a detailed mechanism to avoid that, which then obviates every supposed benefit from dropping spell slots.

Well... I just realized that my particular wording would let warlocks cast foresight per short rest...

So maybe not that exactly wording, and even if not an invocation. Something along those lines that avoids "slots" would be good.

Nah, slots are good.

My take:

lvl 1: Patron extra spells, Eldritch blast, Pact magic
lvl 2: Invocations
lvl 3: Pact Boons (archetypes)


So yeah, the warlock 3rd level archetypes are not based on the Patron, but on the boon they get from them.
In order to do so, I'd take the Boon-specific Invocations to create the archetypes' features and instead take the old archetypes' features and use them as Patron-specific Invocations.

While interesting, we know they won’t do this, because it is very incompatible with the supplements.

The patron has to be 1st level or the warlock has no powers. They can give minor things at 1st and the main part of the features can start at third.

The same problem is going to be with sorcerers. Without their subclass, the have no powers.

Well that just isn’t true. Warlock doesn’t have to get all thier power directly from the patron. There is a whole thread about it right now.

The sorcerer doesn’t have to have obvious signs of what the source of their power is in order to have said power.

 

[mellored]

I don’t care about multiclassing. It is not important when designing the fundamentals of a class.

Half the reasons why they are moving subclasses to level 3 is because of multiclassing.
You might not care, but it matters to the game.

Also, I don't see a problem with more short rest spells. Warlocks already have plenty of at-will spells, so can already do far more casting than anyone else. It's not an issue.

Anyways, probably won't happen, as they seem to be avoiding changes.

The patron has to be 1st level or the warlock has no powers. They can give minor things at 1st and the main part of the features can start at third.

The other half the reason they moved subclasses to 3 is to reduce option overload.

So no patron choice at 1.
Also, I kind of like the flavor of not knowing exactly who your made the pact with.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Half the reasons why they are moving subclasses to level 3 is because of multiclassing.
You might not care, but it matters to the game.

Got any source on that? I’ve not heard nor read any such thing.

Also, I don't see a problem with more short rest spells. Warlocks already have plenty of at-will spells, so can already do far more casting than anyone else. It's not an issue.

The at will casting is carefully chosen, not just “pick any level 1 spell, it’s at will now”.

Anyways, probably won't happen, as they seem to be avoiding changes.

Thank goodness for that.