D&D (2024) Warlock

[mellored]

Got any source on that? I’ve not heard nor read any such thing.

One of the videos. Possibly on the cleric.

The at will casting is carefully chosen, not just “pick any level 1 spell, it’s at will now”.

The whole warlock spell list is carefully chosen to be ones that suitable for a short rest cast.

So yea. Probably not the best idea to allow any arcane spell to be short rest cast. But that's true for "slots" or otherwise.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

One of the videos. Possibly on the cleric.

I’m not gonna have time for a 20 minute video I’ve already watched at the moment, but I don’t recall any statement that multiclassing cheese is a major motivator in giving all classes the same subclass levels.

The whole warlock spell list is carefully chosen to be ones that suitable for a short rest cast.

So yea. Probably not the best idea to allow any arcane spell to be short rest cast. But that's true for "slots" or otherwise.

Then you have to curate, at which point what are you actually gaining?

 

[mellored]

I’m not gonna have time for a 20 minute video I’ve already watched at the moment, but I don’t recall any statement that multiclassing cheese is a major motivator in giving all classes the same subclass levels.

It was 1 of 2 reasons.

Then you have to curate, at which point what are you actually gaining?

Fixing multiclass issues.
And providing more build flexibility.

What are you actually losing?

 

[Charlaquin]

I respect this, but I’m glad it isn’t the design goal of the class as it is written now, because it’s not what I want from the class. It’s definitely one way to play the class, obviously, but all my warlocks since 3.5 have been people who break the rules of magic, hacking the code of arcane formulae, invoking and binding power into themselves and their tools, etc, and thier patron is either a mentor (usually with ambiguous personal goals and priorities) or a being they called into a circle of invocation and sacrificed something in exchange for the knowledge of how to bypass the structures and rules that bind other spellcasters.

Frankly, this interpretation better differentiates warlocks from clerics of evil deities.

 

[Charlaquin]

I’m not gonna have time for a 20 minute video I’ve already watched at the moment, but I don’t recall any statement that multiclassing cheese is a major motivator in giving all classes the same subclass levels.

He goes on much longer about the first reason, which he says is the bigger one: that subclass is too big of a decision to ask players to make before they’ve gotten to play the class at all. But he does go on to say that the second reason is that the classes that get their subclass at 1st levels are most frequently involved in “multiclass combinations that people kind of grit their teeth about.”

 

[doctorbadwolf]

He goes on much longer about the first reason, which he says is the bigger one: that subclass is too big of a decision to ask players to make before they’ve gotten to play the class at all. But he does go on to say that the second reason is that the classes that get their subclass at 1st levels are most frequently involved in “multiclass combinations that people kind of grit their teeth about.”

That’s what I remembered, but that doesn’t fit what I’m reading in this thread. That isn’t “multiclassing breaks the game”, which is what would need to be the case to do something as drastic as making warlock Spellcasting into invocations.

A warlock/Paladin isn’t actually stronger than a single class Paladin. A Bard/Paladin worries me more, but even it still loses a lot by multiclassing, and gains…slightly more divine smites per day, which isn’t a big deal.

It was 1 of 2 reasons.

Not really. The other reason is explicitly the bigger, so “multiclass combinations” can’t be half the reason, and he doesn’t indicate at all that it’s a major balance issue, just that such classes tend to be involve in combinations that people don’t like. They aren’t going to get rid of pact magic over that.

Fixing multiclass issues.

Not really. A normal full caster is a better MC for the Paladin.

And providing more build flexibility.

What are you actually losing?

Actual flexibility in play, for one thing. You’re proposing a system whereby you have invocation taxes in order to play like a spellcaster, and where you have 3.5 style “you have one use of charm person, and one use only”. That is less flexible than spell slots.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Frankly, this interpretation better differentiates warlocks from clerics of evil deities.

Yep, that’s another reason I prefer it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

@mellored i don’t know why I’m being so aggro about this. I apologize.

I think that an invocations and cantrips only setup could work if we drop the idea of regularly using short rest recharge spells altogether, give the class ritual casting automatically, and increase the number of long rest and at-will invocations.

But I do beleive that essentially giving the class the ability to take Fey touched a bunch of times in order to rack up a decent spell list is more complex and less flexible in play than pact magic is.

 

[mellored]

They aren’t going to get rid of pact magic over that.

I never suggested getting rid of it.
Just rewording it to not combine with multiclassing.

Not really. A normal full caster is a better MC for the Paladin.

Hexblade's Cha to attack is main the issue for paladins, and getting a decent ranged attack.
Short rest smite just make the deal even sweeter.

Though I expect Smite to change a bit. Paladins in general could use a nerf.

Actual flexibility in play, for one thing. You’re proposing a system whereby you have invocation taxes in order to play like a spellcaster

Again, with an appropriate number of extra invocations.
i.e. 3 slots at level 11 -> 3 extra invocations at level 11.
You can spend those 3 on Pact Magic and have the same spells you have now.

Maybe throw in one extra one, as Warlocks could use a little more power IMO.

 

[mellored]

@mellored i don’t know why I’m being so aggro about this. I apologize.

No worries. I got plenty of patience. And it's changing your favorite class, so not a big surprise.

I think that an invocations and cantrips only setup could work if we drop the idea of regularly using short rest recharge spells altogether, give the class ritual casting automatically, and increase the number of long rest and at-will invocations.

Per the playtest.

If you have a Spell prepared that has the Ritual tag, you can cast that Spellas a Ritual. A special feature is no longer required for Ritual casting.

Seems like that one will stick.

But I do beleive that essentially giving the class the ability to take Fey touched a bunch of times in order to rack up a decent spell list is more complex and less flexible in play than pact magic is.

Well, it's not like I playtested this. And obviously my wording needs work.

Also, they might do something else to fix the multiclass "slot" issues.