We made the DM cry...

[Von Ether]

I think, if my players actually suggested these characters, I would have cried too....What ever happened to playing normal characters? I read these boards everyday, and see this becoming somewhat of a fad. We have moved back to DnD when 3rd edition came out, and the most radical concept so far, has been a Half Dragon Minotaur warrior, but I allowed it, beacuse he did alot of work in coming up with a reason for it. The group I currntly GM is him, Human RSOP, a human weapons master, a human mystic theurge. I made him take all the negatives for starting as a +8 ECL too. The game I play in, the same group, in FR is all human, I am a Rogue 3/Wiz 1, we have a ranger 4, a Paladin 4, and a Cleric 4.

I am not bashing 3 or 3.5, I actually like it, and I know everyone has the right to have fun, and play the game as it sutis them and their GM, but it is really hard to find different groups to game with. I tried one at my FLGS, and noone wants to be a normal heroic character, and earn their stuff. I find that making Items so prevalent has been bad too...All they want to do, is trade in items they find, or constantly ask if they can have something made...Geez....I'm happy to find a +2 weapn...

Not much change from the games I used to see back in previous editions, except players where saying "My PC's dad was a demon/god/dragon" as compared to acutally being half dragon, full demon or whatever. Pity about the golem with various template and two printed races (Ironborn from Cooke and Warforged from Eberron) available to make his job easier.

On the other hand, one of the more fun games I was in was a pure human party. Suddenly elves and dwarves weren't our friends anymore.

 

[Von Ether]

I have to say, it annoys me when a DM introduces a NPC that the party is supposed to work with, and then has the NPC be a jerk and/or have no real reson to work with the party when you really get down to it. My reaction of course is to have my character react as they would naturally instead of trying to work with the NPC just because I know that I'm "supposed to".

The most extreme case of this was in a WWG Star Wars game, the "guide" for the party was continually being a total jerk, and extorting us for more money than we could afford (bribes are fine, but blackmail/extortion just pisses me off ) Eventually he made a comment that sent me over the edge, so I shot him. The rest of the party was agast, but they had plenty of time to calm down while we were tring to keep the skimmer from crashing. (did I mention the guide was driving at the time?)

I've had the opposite problem. I've had a sponsor or benefactor that's bending over backwards to help set up the party and the players all act like jerks and try to run over the NPC because he "supposed" to be an NPC patsy to their egos. "What? A mere 1,000 gold for the job! Bah! We want $5,000! Take it or leave it (how much you wanna bet Von doesn't have a back up adventure tonight. Oh. Crap. he does.)"

Another pet peeve is when Players make PCs who have no urge to work with the group or even to come up with some shared connection or passion ... and they they look at me to find a way to shift the whole game to fit them in. (The last big offender on that front amused me when he started GMing and ended up with a "your in the military and this is the day's misison" just to avoid the hassle of setting up PC parties.)

Actualy right now, I'm taking over a game where it seems that the players are metagaming that they know the NPCs are supporting cast. They had no urge to find the missing ship's crew until they realized they need them to get off the island and pass the stormy straits.

 

[billd91]

<snip>Disrupting the first game, on the first day, that your friend is DMing is simply bad form.


RC

Oh, I dunno. A little new DM hazing isn't such a bad thing. It'll make him appreciate requiring the players to make an initial party that has a reason to hang together and be reasonably cooperative..

 

[Raven Crowking]

Oh, I dunno. A little new DM hazing isn't such a bad thing. It'll make him appreciate requiring the players to make an initial party that has a reason to hang together and be reasonably cooperative..

Or, perhaps, you teach the prospective DM that DMing is not a valuable way to spend his or her time and effort. Certainly, it is not unreasonable for a new DM to expect that his friends are not out to destroy his scenario just because they can.

To be honest, there is no amount of experience that can prevent a player from being the victim of a bad DM if he chooses to play with that DM. Nor is there any amount of experience that can prevent a DM from being the victim of bad players, short of choosing not to play with those people. The DM could have forced the players to be all human, if he so chose, and none of the other circumstances would have been changed. Nothing about the players' behavior as described was the result of the racial choices the DM allowed.

I repeat:

Another way to look at it is this: Would you expect a first time player to face the same challenges as a seasoned veteran? If not, why not?

I suggest the same probably applies to DMing.

We are not talking about the mistakes of juvenile players who do not know better here. We are talking about intentionally turning what is, at best, a cooperative game into an adversarial game.

Me, I would have let the lone Wizard powerful enough to live in an anti-arcanist area introduce them to their first TPK. Then I would have either (1) asked them to create new, core rules characters, or (2) gotten some new players.


RC



EDIT: Of course, I wouldn't have had their "patron" stealing from them, either. Mind probe? Sure. Who wouldn't mind probe the crew these guys assembled, prior to hiring them?

 

[ThirdWizard]

Not from players.

Perhaps not from players aged 12 and under. Mentally.

Oh, I dunno. A little new DM hazing isn't such a bad thing. It'll make him appreciate requiring the players to make an initial party that has a reason to hang together and be reasonably cooperative..

So does that mean you would understand a little PC hazing on the first game. Make sure they lose all their stuff before being captured, tortured, and summarily killed on the first game. Yeah, they'll come back.

 

[Felon]

Regardless of your last post, it seems pretty clear from your earlier posts that you went out of your way to screw up the DM's setup on the very first day he was DMing.

Well, going strictly by what Anthro said, the NPC was probing his mind and trying to steal from him (although he is conveniently light on specifics). Maybe it's just me, but having my mind penetrated without my express permission is a pretty volatile action to take. Telling someone "don't do that again" by way of some furniture obliteration might not be so out of line.

EDIT: Of course, I wouldn't have had their "patron" stealing from them, either. Mind probe? Sure. Who wouldn't mind probe the crew these guys assembled, prior to hiring them?

Someone who doesn't seek to immediately flush the concept of mutual trust down the toilet. I mean really, what do you gain here? Either you find out they're untrustworthy, so you don't do business with them, or you find out they are honorable, but they won't do business with you because you are despicable enought to probe their minds without their permission.

Of course, if we're just talking about the spell detect thoughts, then it's a moot point as there's no way for the PC's to know for certain he's reading their minds anyway.

 

[Felon]

(The last big offender on that front amused me when he started GMing and ended up with a "your in the military and this is the day's misison" just to avoid the hassle of setting up PC parties.)

Please explain. Why does that "amuse" you, and why does that constitute an "offense"? Having PC's work as members of a larger organization is a perfectly good hook. In fact, as opposed to a bunch of guys from different backgrounds who all bumped into each other in a tavern or dungeon entrance, it's a superior one.

 

[Desdichado]

DM's don't cry, they just fry the offending PCs.

I mean, serious, a party of freaks by anyone's standards running around acting like jerks... I'd fry 'em too. And then, next week, with your new party, you can try again. "Well, I tried to hire these real losers before; did you see those freaky golem and half-dragon, etc. corpses impaled on stakes in front of the castle? Just remember; that could be you..."

But no, we don't have those kinds of problems. Not only is everyone in my group a DM (not at the same time, obviously) so we have very high quality playing, but all of us are capable enough as DMs to take some unexpected action and roll with it.

I'm always amazed at the comments I get from my characters, "I wouldn't assume this has anything to do with me; these are probably just some random thugs looking to pick on someone new in town. Nah, I wouldn't suspect any of the NPCs I know of double-crossing me," hehe. Okay, then. But that's nothing like wilfull sabotage of the game. I haven't had anything like that happen since I was 13 or so. Frankly, I wouldn't put up with a group that did that. One session of that, and I'd move on.

 

[Darkness]

I once broke a first-time GM too.

He deserved it, though.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Well, going strictly by what Anthro said, the NPC was probing his mind and trying to steal from him (although he is conveniently light on specifics). Maybe it's just me, but having my mind penetrated without my express permission is a pretty volatile action to take. Telling someone "don't do that again" by way of some furniture obliteration might not be so out of line.


Someone who doesn't seek to immediately flush the concept of mutual trust down the toilet. I mean really, what do you gain here? Either you find out they're untrustworthy, so you don't do business with them, or you find out they are honorable, but they won't do business with you because you are despicable enought to probe their minds without their permission.

Of course, if we're just talking about the spell detect thoughts, then it's a moot point as there's no way for the PC's to know for certain he's reading their minds anyway.

Felon,

As you note, we are remarkably light on the specifics. Indeed, I fail to see how the NPC Wizard could "mind probe" the characters, and the 1st-level characters could become aware of it. And what, really, do 1st-level characters have that is worth their patron stealing? Honestly, now?

I think it is far more likely that the DM said, "What are your characters currently thinking? The Wizard is detecting your thoughts." and the players decided that somehow the characters could act on that knowledge. I further suspect that the behavior of the PCs led directly to the behavior of the NPC in question. It would be nice to hear from the DM, wouldn't it?

Now, here's my take on patrons:

Some people in the world are more powerful than the PCs. Occasionally, they want to hire muscle to do the things they either don't have the time for, or don't want to do themselves. Maybe they don't have the requisite skills. So, they hire someone to do those things. The first time the PCs meet with the patron is like a job interview. Either you want the job or you don't. Either you get the job or you don't.

Patrons have cash and other stuff...that's why the PCs are bothering to listen to them. They also have enemies who might hire, say, a stone golem monk, a yuan-ti pureblood ranger, a thri-keen barbarian and a human warlock to assassinate them and/or take their stuff. Heck, a group like that might take the patron's stuff anyway, if given a chance. After all, most yuan-ti and thri-keen you meet are not exactly on the best of terms with regular people.

Most patrons also have a higher social standing than most 1st level PCs. That means that they are allowed to do things that the PCs may not like. Society often says its okay, and they have the power to back it up. Which is why, in this case, the PC ends up in prison swearing to kill the NPC's family. "Mind probing" ala Detect Thoughts might be invasive, but it is a tactic that few PCs think is unethical when they are doing it. Passing through Customs when you get off a plane might seem invasive, too, but I assure you that setting fire to the furniture in retaliation is a bad move.

Now, if the PCs are dumb enough to threaten the socially and mechanically more powerful patron...and the patron's family...they deserve what they get. I have no more sympathy for them than I would for you if you did the same in the airport.

If I suspected that you did the same, not because you found Customs to be invasive, but because you were trying to undermine the enjoyment of other airline passengers, I would have even less sympathy for you.


RC