We saw a Star War! Last Jedi spoiler thread

[Ovinomancer]

You and me both, amigo.

You guys must have Luke confused with someone that wasn't a petulant whiner while being trained by Yoda, that failed to lift the X-Wing, and who was successfully goaded into attacking by the Emperor in RotJ. Luke was always a hothead that thought better of it a moment later. This calm, collected, super-awesome Luke isn't someone I recognize from the OT at all.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Yeah, they brought the Empire down, but they didn’t eradicate it. That was what I meant....they didn’t eliminate evil. The only way anyone ever gets a happily ever after is when their story is over. The fact that this trilogy was going to involve Han, Leia, and Luke meant that their stories were no longer over. So they needed to face some adversity.

The idea of a remnant of the Empire picking up the mantle of antagonist is new as far as Star Wars sequels go. Grand Admiral Thrawn in the Heir to the Empire, a resurrected Emperor in Dark Empire...and so on. But those stories, because of their medium, didn’t have to acknowledge the passing of time the way the film sequels do. So in the film, it’s many years later when things begin to get dark again. Which is kind of funny because to me that’s more natural than if there’s almost no lapse between Palpatine and Thrawn, let’s say. In the EU material, the happily ever after period is far shorter, if it even exists at all. And yet I don’t think I recall fans criticizing those stories for undoing the heroes’ achievements.

There’s no reason to believe that some part of the Empire wouldn’t carry on and possibly morph into something else. The First Order is essentially the Empire, with some minor differences, but I don’t really mind that since it’s something that rose up over time rather than right away.

I wouldn’t mind a threat of a different kind in future movies, I agree with you there. But for this one, the First Order seems a suitable antagonist.

The advantage the EU has here is that it's actually telling the story of how the Republic builds and has to fight off the remains of the Empire. The writers are basicaly showing their work. The Happy Everafter is not quite that everafter, but they are showing us that their victory actually had consequences and they achieved something - but they have to keep fighting for it.

In TFA, we're just seeing it all dismantled already. They didn't show their work.
Why wouldn't the story about how Kylo Ren turns and destroys the young new Jedi Order worth showing? Why isn't the story about how the First Order builts itself on the remains of the Empire worth showing? Because they couldn't figure out how to convincingly tell that story?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

My biggest set of criticisms of the film I put in the 'needs just one line' category.

Flying Leia: "She doing it again, get the door!" Establishes that Leia use of the force, and in particular that use, has precedent and also instead treated as 'whatever' by everyone.

The Knights of Ren: a line of dialogue establishing that Snoke's guards are some of the Knights. This adds a lot of extra weight to Ren fighting, and killing, his former disciples and friends.

The line you have above, that ties in that fact with the lack of allies.

In Canto Bight's jail: "I informed the 1st Order about that deserter we just picked up." Establishes that the 1st Order has scope and reach in the galaxy at large.

During the chase, on the Supremacy: "Sir, should we vector in reinforcements from blahblah System?" Hux: "There's no need for fancy maneuvers here, the prey caught tightly in our trap. It's just a matter of time." Establishes scope again, and also obviates the questions about doing a short hop to head off the Resistance. Also, two lines.

There was one I had for Rey/Luke, but damned if I can remember it right now.

"This is the 3rd lesson". I may have miscounted, but I think there were supposed to be 3 lessons! I hate when heroes don't follow through with their promises! (Admittedly, there might have been a 3rd lesson, just not labeled as such, or the 3rd lesson could be force-ghosted in later. Or I just wasn't attentive enough.)

 

[Ovinomancer]

"This is the 3rd lesson". I may have miscounted, but I think there were supposed to be 3 lessons! I hate when heroes don't follow through with their promises! (Admittedly, there might have been a 3rd lesson, just not labeled as such, or the 3rd lesson could be force-ghosted in later. Or I just wasn't attentive enough.)

The callback to Luke not finishing his training so he could go help his friends didn't click with you?

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

"This is the 3rd lesson". I may have miscounted, but I think there were supposed to be 3 lessons! I hate when heroes don't follow through with their promises! (Admittedly, there might have been a 3rd lesson, just not labeled as such, or the 3rd lesson could be force-ghosted in later. Or I just wasn't attentive enough.)

Seen Yoda count to five, you have?

 

[wicked cool]

Watched a Kevin Smith review last night of last jedi. Hes less angry than Angry Joe but he di bring up the fact that Luke calls his lightsaber a lazer sword

I get the fact that hey Luke cant outshine the new hero and its time to move on blah blah blah.

However was this movie really marketed to 3 year olds? No in fact it was marketed as an Empire Strikes back killer or as good as. Star wars was huge in the 70's and 80's. I asked my kids and its not even a blip in the schools. You could say well old timer kids are different today and my kids schools are talking about it. That is total crap. Avengers, Wonderwoman, Stranger things, Riverdale etc were/are hot topics. Star Wars has lost some of its luster basically due to the fact that theres crappy directing and crappy storyline with shallow/awful characters such as jar jar, Poe etc. Disney basically poured a ton of love into a so/so comic hero Iron Man with a washed up older actor (he was in his 40's with an old guy as the villain) and then built it into a giant franchise. I would bet that if John Favreau had directed Star wars that it would be doing much better.

forget the 70-80's nostalgia. If this movie got released against avengers it would get destroyed. Heck I bet the greatest showman and Jumanji could really hurt ticket sales

 

[Ovinomancer]

Watched a Kevin Smith review last night of last jedi. Hes less angry than Angry Joe but he di bring up the fact that Luke calls his lightsaber a lazer sword

I get the fact that hey Luke cant outshine the new hero and its time to move on blah blah blah.

However was this movie really marketed to 3 year olds? No in fact it was marketed as an Empire Strikes back killer or as good as.

I saw no marketing to this effect. I saw some reviewers say it was the best since Empire, but no marketing. Your really need to refine your understanding of the vast difference between marketing and reviewer opinions.

ETA: You also failed to mention that Kevin Smith loved TLJ.

Star wars was huge in the 70's and 80's. I asked my kids and its not even a blip in the schools. You could say well old timer kids are different today and my kids schools are talking about it. That is total crap. Avengers, Wonderwoman, Stranger things, Riverdale etc were/are hot topics. Star Wars has lost some of its luster basically due to the fact that theres crappy directing and crappy storyline with shallow/awful characters such as jar jar, Poe etc. Disney basically poured a ton of love into a so/so comic hero Iron Man with a washed up older actor (he was in his 40's with an old guy as the villain) and then built it into a giant franchise. I would bet that if John Favreau had directed Star wars that it would be doing much better.

My son, on the other hand, was really excited to be able to see it opening weekend because he wanted to talk to all of his friends about it at school on Monday. He's come home a few times excited about what a friend said about the movie and this theory or that. I had to tell him to not get attached to any theories -- they rarely pan out. He's excited because his best friend is finally going to see it this weekend so they can talk about it next week over break.

So, yeah, my anecdote counters yours.

forget the 70-80's nostalgia. If this movie got released against avengers it would get destroyed. Heck I bet the greatest showman and Jumanji could really hurt ticket sales

I doubt it, but, hey, we don't have to guess, we can just wait. You can hope it bombs, and I can not care much because I liked it anyway and don't need the validation, but we can both see what happened next week when the data comes out. I'm certain there will be enough for you to interpret it negatively and as a sign that the franchise is doomed.

 

[epithet]

You guys must have Luke confused with someone that wasn't a petulant whiner while being trained by Yoda, that failed to lift the X-Wing, and who was successfully goaded into attacking by the Emperor in RotJ. Luke was always a hothead that thought better of it a moment later. This calm, collected, super-awesome Luke isn't someone I recognize from the OT at all.

Super-awesome Luke wasn’t a character we were introduced to in 1977 Star Wars, that was the kid. Over three movies and “the hero’s journey,” the kid becomes super-awesome. It was earned, and grown into.

Don’t get me wrong, I really love Rey as a character. It is difficult to develop her, though, when she starts as a virtuous champion and goes from zero to Force Goddess the moment she grabs dad’s lightsaber.

I have to say, the casting of Ridley and Driver was inspired. Rey and Kylo are both characters that would be insufferable with lesser actors in those roles. Just imagine how much more enjoyable the prequel trilogy would have been if Anakin had that much charisma.

 

[Wystan]

My one comment is Luke directly maps to Ben Kenobi - Failed his Apprentice, exiled himself to a planet, hid himself... only to be found and turn around a pivotal moment with the training of a new Jedi....

 

[Ovinomancer]

Super-awesome Luke wasn’t a character we were introduced to in 1977 Star Wars, that was the kid. Over three movies and “the hero’s journey,” the kid becomes super-awesome. It was earned, and grown into.

ESB: Luke whines constantly about his training. Can't focus. Fails to lift the X-wing and gives up. Runs off from his training to help his friends, ends up in failed confrontation with Vader. Loses badly.

RotJ: Luke sets up a plan to rescue Han that involves him showing up and demanding Han and trying to use the Force to get his way. It fails, badly (and predictably). He only manages to escape his failed plan with his friends due to a series of narrow victories and dumb luck (Boba had him dead to rights before Han accidentally hits his jetpack and causes a lucky malfunction). Dumb luck saves the day, not super-awesome and wise Luke. Later in the film, Luke realizes that his very presence on the Endor raid has caused Vader to sense him -- something fairly easily predicted. So, because of this Luke again wanders off from his friends on a wild hunch that he has to face Vader. Is brought before the Emperor, who easily goads him into attacking out of anger and fear. Only barely halts himself from destroying his father and then is about to be completely destroyed by the Emperor when Vader makes a choice to save him.

At no point in the OT is Luke ever super-awesome or show any real gift at making wise choices. I have no idea how you could possibly form this opinion of him from the OT. This idea about Luke is a fantasy, or entirely based on the not-canon EU post trilogy books.

Don’t get me wrong, I really love Rey as a character. It is difficult to develop her, though, when she starts as a virtuous champion and goes from zero to Force Goddess the moment she grabs dad’s lightsaber.

We saw she was a skilled fighter before that, though, in multiple scenes. Is it so egregious that when the force finally blooms in her, one of the most powerful users ever known, that it would show itself in such a way? Let's be honest, Luke had never flown an X-wing, had never fired a photon torpedo, and yet hit the exhaust vent with and unfamiliar weapon while flying an unfamiliar fighter down a narrow trench he'd never seen before all while his eyes were closed. And you want to quibble about some lightsaber fight being unrealistic for a force user? I, again, have no idea what kind of myths you've built up in your head about the OT characters, but they were as super- and suddenly competent as the new cast.

I have to say, the casting of Ridley and Driver was inspired. Rey and Kylo are both characters that would be insufferable with lesser actors in those roles. Just imagine how much more enjoyable the prequel trilogy would have been if Anakin had that much charisma.

The actor wasn't the problem in the prequels -- his dialog is pretty horrid by itself. Sure, the actor didn't make it sing, like Ewan did with Kenobi, but he had much, much less to work with and Lucas as a director. Lucas really, really needs someone at his shoulder at all times willing to say, "no, George, just no." ESB is the finest Star Wars movie, and, coincidentally, the one that Lucas had the least direct control over.