We saw a Star War! Last Jedi spoiler thread

[wicked cool]

I don't hope it fails, will never argue it be stricken from canon, glad you liked it and happy kids are talking about it. I wanted Phantom Menace to succeed but at the time Austin Powers kicked the crap out of it. If I'm wrong that it loses possibly its top spot this weekend then I will apologize. I think second viewings will be down (it appears I could be wrong as Disney has made it lucrative for many theaters to show it with 4 week guarantee or face penalties which is different from even force awakens)

the argument that Disney didn't market it that way is somewhat misleading. Commercials with reviews attached is marketing and those reviews (google) constantly refer it it as the best star wars since Empire.

The Kevin Smith youtube review is over and hour long and he saw it twice. After the first viewing he doesn't actually love it. he is super critical of it but u can tell he couches it do to director respect. He basically backs almost every bad point made about the movie and added ones I didn't catch such as lazer sword (basically goes into the origins of the lazer sword). he actually cries several times during the video so he takes this stuff very seriously.

 

[billd91]

The advantage the EU has here is that it's actually telling the story of how the Republic builds and has to fight off the remains of the Empire. The writers are basicaly showing their work. The Happy Everafter is not quite that everafter, but they are showing us that their victory actually had consequences and they achieved something - but they have to keep fighting for it.

In TFA, we're just seeing it all dismantled already. They didn't show their work.
Why wouldn't the story about how Kylo Ren turns and destroys the young new Jedi Order worth showing? Why isn't the story about how the First Order builts itself on the remains of the Empire worth showing? Because they couldn't figure out how to convincingly tell that story?

Because the moviemakers started too late to do that if they wanted to use Ford, Fisher, and Hamill. Given the 40-years of aging since the first movie, they had to start along a pretty advanced timeline and tell the backstory of how Kylo Ren turns via flashback and reminiscence. Kind of like how the original trilogy starts late in Darth Vader's and the Empire's story. In that case, they did go back in time to show their work... and we all know how that turned out.

 

[billd91]

RotJ: Luke sets up a plan to rescue Han that involves him showing up and demanding Han and trying to use the Force to get his way. It fails, badly (and predictably). He only manages to escape his failed plan with his friends due to a series of narrow victories and dumb luck (Boba had him dead to rights before Han accidentally hits his jetpack and causes a lucky malfunction). Dumb luck saves the day, not super-awesome and wise Luke. Later in the film, Luke realizes that his very presence on the Endor raid has caused Vader to sense him -- something fairly easily predicted. So, because of this Luke again wanders off from his friends on a wild hunch that he has to face Vader. Is brought before the Emperor, who easily goads him into attacking out of anger and fear. Only barely halts himself from destroying his father and then is about to be completely destroyed by the Emperor when Vader makes a choice to save him.

At no point in the OT is Luke ever super-awesome or show any real gift at making wise choices. I have no idea how you could possibly form this opinion of him from the OT. This idea about Luke is a fantasy, or entirely based on the not-canon EU post trilogy books.

I'd agree that in the original trilogy, there's no point where Luke is super-awesome with a preternatural gift for making wise choices. However, I'd give him a lot more credit with Han's rescue. The plan has layers of contingencies at work for when one gambit or another fails and almost all of the players in the game are competent at making adhoc decisions to take advantage of opportunities (Threepio probably being the only exception, and probably because he was kept out of the planning because he's a blabbermouth). There are moments when events are out of Luke's control, but the contingencies allow him and his friends to retake the initiative, assassinate Jabba, and rescue Han. It's not just dumb luck, much of it is making opportunities happen.

 

[billd91]

Watched a Kevin Smith review last night of last jedi. Hes less angry than Angry Joe but he di bring up the fact that Luke calls his lightsaber a lazer sword

A totally appropriate comment from a bitter Luke Skywalker given its context. Loved it.

I get the fact that hey Luke cant outshine the new hero and its time to move on blah blah blah.

Outshine? That's not the point. But it's a story in which he's a supporting character, not the hero. His fight was a generation ago, same as with Ben Kenobi.

However was this movie really marketed to 3 year olds? No in fact it was marketed as an Empire Strikes back killer or as good as. Star wars was huge in the 70's and 80's. I asked my kids and its not even a blip in the schools. You could say well old timer kids are different today and my kids schools are talking about it. That is total crap. Avengers, Wonderwoman, Stranger things, Riverdale etc were/are hot topics. Star Wars has lost some of its luster basically due to the fact that theres crappy directing and crappy storyline with shallow/awful characters such as jar jar, Poe etc. Disney basically poured a ton of love into a so/so comic hero Iron Man with a washed up older actor (he was in his 40's with an old guy as the villain) and then built it into a giant franchise. I would bet that if John Favreau had directed Star wars that it would be doing much better.

That's garbage. Star Wars has a LOT more competition now just because there are a lot more offerings out there of a similar level - something that was lacking in 1977 until Star Wars opened the door to it even being possible. It has little to do with what you consider crappy direction and weak characters, particularly when you compare with the original trilogy. As Harrison Ford said at the time, "Relax, kid. It ain't that kind of movie." The original trilogy isn't exactly The Godfather or Citizen Kane. The characters are templates right out of second rate sci-fi serials and Joseph Campbell theories. Much of the impression they are deeper or more significant is bolted on by years of post hoc add-ons and tortured fanboy analysis.

 

[billd91]

The Kevin Smith youtube review is over and hour long and he saw it twice. After the first viewing he doesn't actually love it. he is super critical of it but u can tell he couches it do to director respect. He basically backs almost every bad point made about the movie and added ones I didn't catch such as lazer sword (basically goes into the origins of the lazer sword). he actually cries several times during the video so he takes this stuff very seriously.

Given what Kevin Smith says he would have had Luke do in the final confrontation on Crait, I'm glad they're not giving Star Wars direction projects to him. Ugh.

 

[wicked cool]

It has little to do with what you consider crappy direction and weak characters, particularly when you compare with the original trilogy. As Harrison Ford said at the time, "Relax, kid. It ain't that kind of movie." The original trilogy isn't exactly The Godfather or Citizen Kane. The characters are templates right out of second rate sci-fi serials and Joseph Campbell theories. Much of the impression they are deeper or more significant is bolted on by years of post hoc add-ons and tortured fanboy analysis."

and yet compared to the 70's characters, the Stranger things characters, the harry potter characters, the characters from most decent movies they are paper thin. I'm not asking for citizen Kane. I'm not even asking for adult movie characters. I'm asking for depth-backstory etc. They don't have to even be likeable. Kylo is a crappy villain compared to say Joffrey from Game of Thrones. Joffrey is a better written and better acted character. Milly bobby Brown as Eleven has more care given to her and a side by side comparison the acting of Finn/Poe.


Stranger things is a tv show with a lot more competition and yet right now I would argue kids-young adults are more excited for Stranger Things season 3 then the next Star Wars movie. I would argue right now the adults in my office are more excited for Game of Thrones in 2019. Most wished for Amazon toys partially validates my argument. Top 50 rey isnt mentioned. we have 1 bird,droid and 2 Kylos. Stranger things dominates and its well deserved.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Ah, but don't get me wrong: I'm nearing 40, I grew up with the OT, I've seen the PT on opening day each time, I've read my share of EU before it became Legends...

It's just that now, being a dad of 2 boys, I've made peace with the fact that the late-70, early-80s charm of the OT will never be recaptured. Make it too similar visually, like R1, and some people will complain. Make it different, like the PT, some people will complain. Make it similar story-wise, like TFA, some people will complain. There's no pleasing everybody.

Had Luke been any different than what he was in TLJ, coming in guns blazing, he would have outshined the new cast. Don't deny it, we all wanted it. But we didn't need it. RJ wiped the slate clean for things to come.

As I said, the OT will continue to be what it is, the films to come will (have to) be their own thing.
I've made peace with that fact.

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Yeah I have pretty much let Star Wars go at this point. The first Trilogy was such a defining event in my childhood and I even loved the prequals. But the half-reboot that is TFA and this one...yeah I think my 40 year affair with SW is over. Just kind of sucks that now when I rewatch the originals the impact is lessened since I'm thinking "well this doesn't stick at all, Luke is a joke of a Jedi who blows it all, and the Empire is back in a couple decades. Leia never explores her connection to the Force and Han is a more sad than anything in the end.." I just wish they had made a new trilogy with new heroes that didn't pretty much invalidate the originals for me. YMMV and all.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

But despite that moment of weakness that led to the fall of the Jedi Order, Luke rises up again, and with his final act, achieves greatness again. He saves the resistance and serves as a symbol of inspiration for a new generation. Saying that he "is a failure" fails to acknowledge the entire point of the movie. He failed once. He then had a choice....let that failure define him, and hide for the rest of his days. Or put it aside and see if he can contribute meaningfully. He chose that second option.

I would believe that if when was told the galaxy was in trouble that his sister was in trouble, that Han died, that he immediately said "You know what, I've been letting my mistake consume me for too long. I will come help you. I made one mistake and I will not let it define me."

Then I would have been ok with the situation. Instead, what we got was him saying "You don't understand, the Jedi were horrible people, *I* was a horrible person and the galaxy, my sister, they can go to hell as far as I'm concerned. I'm here to die and don't care about all of you at all."

Even if that was his initial response and he slowly grew over the movie to go help Rey, I likely still would have been ok with it.

But instead, Rey kept believing in him while he repeatedly told her "I'm no hero. I never was a hero. My deeds weren't that important. Instead, people tell stories about how great I was. They were wrong. In fact, let me tell you why there is NO hope and you shouldn't try."

That's not the same character I remember at all. It isn't just that he has flaws now, it's that every single trait that defined him in the other movies was gone. He failed, then he repeated his failure over and over again during this movie by rejecting Rey and the rest of the galaxy and feeling sorry for himself.

The fact that he shows up at the very end feels hollow because of how long it took for him to get to that point, and the fact that his decision really doesn't end up making much of a difference at all. Sure, he let them escape, but he could have saved everyone and stopped this years ago if he hadn't given up.

 

[Water Bob]

Yeah I have pretty much let Star Wars go at this point. The first Trilogy was such a defining event in my childhood and I even loved the prequals. But the half-reboot that is TFA and this one...yeah I think my 40 year affair with SW is over.

Not me. I just turned 52 yesterday, and I still LOVE Star Wars.

The new trilogy is going in an unexpected direction, but I've embraced it.

Bring on the next film!

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I imagine, had we seen more of the New Republic, before the fleet was taken out by Starkiller base, that we'd have seen ultra-modern, high tech vessels and soldiers with top grade tech.

This, more than anything was my problem with TFA. They literally mention that the Republic exists and that it was in charge of the galaxy and that it was destroyed in lines of dialog without ever seeing it...as if the entire thing was an afterthought.

It was mentioned so quickly that most people I know didn't realize what they were saying in the movie. I talked to one of my friends who asked "Why isn't the Republic in TLJ? What happened to them? Shouldn't their ships come and help The Resistance?"

But that's because in TFA, they literally fired one beam that destroyed the Hosnian System and everything in those systems including all of the ships and 5 planets.

The movie never said, but I got the impression from it that the beam destroyed other systems two. The beam splits into many pieces and seems to hit multiple systems. They seem to mention the Hosnian system in particular because that's where the Senate and the entire Republic fleet was, but the movie gave me the impression that they also destroyed multiple other systems that were loyal to the Republic.

TLJ reiterates (again, in one line of dialog) that the blast destroyed every last remnant of The Republic.

I think because they didn't show it on screen, they didn't set up how big the Republic was and how thoroughly they were destroyed with that one shot that most people didn't get it. Heck, some people have seen both movies and STILL don't get it.

I think, to me, part of my problem is that we never got to see the achievements of the heroes of the old movies before they were torn now. We never saw the Republic being a force for good, the galaxy being in piece and Leia's dream coming true before it was destroyed, seeing the destruction only from a distance and described only in a line of dialog.

We didn't see Luke's temple working the way it was supposed to, a new promising group of students learning from their wise master and hero before we find out that it was destroyed and everyone killed.

We didn't see Han and Leia happy and the good times before their son went to the dark side and Han ran away and gave up on the Resistance.

So, as fans of the original movies we only see everything they've done being torn down. The good they've accomplished was downplayed or ignored and it certainly wasn't shown to us.