We saw a Star War! Last Jedi spoiler thread

[Majoru Oakheart]

You guys must have Luke confused with someone that wasn't a petulant whiner while being trained by Yoda, that failed to lift the X-Wing, and who was successfully goaded into attacking by the Emperor in RotJ. Luke was always a hothead that thought better of it a moment later. This calm, collected, super-awesome Luke isn't someone I recognize from the OT at all.

He's the one who plans the entire rescue of Han in RotJ. I believe Chewy tells Han that he planned everything and Han acts completely surprised because Luke is just a whiny kid who couldn't plan anything.

But then Luke shows up in RotJ and he's calm, collected and thoughtful. Not at all the character he was in ESB. It's obvious that a bunch of time has passed between the two movies because all of his friends are treating him with a lot more respect and he seems to be almost a completely different person.

When he faces the Emperor and Vader, he does so calmly. Though the Emperor tries to make him lose his cool and he eventually picks up his lightsaber after quite a long time of the Emperor goading him. However, once he realizes that he's let his anger get the better of him, he refuses to kill Vader and drops his lightsaber.

We're led to believe that Luke has finally had his breakthrough. He has been grappling with his anger and aggression for the last 2 movies, but as he drops his lightsaber and says "You've failed. I am a Jedi like my father before me." we are led to believe that this is the last time he'll let his anger get in the way. He has finally learned to "let go". He faced his anger and came out the other side, completely getting rid of it.

Which is what makes RotJ my favorite Star Wars movie. It's the culmination of the Hero's Journey. It's the point where the Hero steps up, having finally found his path.

Which is why Luke forgetting all of that and becoming broken hurts me so much and why it colors the rest of the movie for me, even though large parts of the rest of the movie are actually very good.

 

[Eltab]

Wow. You brought all of THAT into TLJ? I can see why you hated it -- it clearly wasn't the movie you imagined.

re: "hated".
Your shallowness beggars description. Where have I shown hate - by any definition (I prefer Webster's) - for the movie? Feel free to be specific.
What you are mischaracterizing minimizing and dismissing is thoughtful analysis and speculations built thereon, over 40 years.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

ESB: Luke whines constantly about his training. Can't focus. Fails to lift the X-wing and gives up. Runs off from his training to help his friends, ends up in failed confrontation with Vader. Loses badly.

Yes, he makes mistakes in ESB. That's kind of the point. He needs to learn from them.

RotJ: Luke sets up a plan to rescue Han that involves him showing up and demanding Han and trying to use the Force to get his way. It fails, badly (and predictably). He only manages to escape his failed plan with his friends due to a series of narrow victories and dumb luck (Boba had him dead to rights before Han accidentally hits his jetpack and causes a lucky malfunction). Dumb luck saves the day, not super-awesome and wise Luke. Later in the film, Luke realizes that his very presence on the Endor raid has caused Vader to sense him -- something fairly easily predicted. So, because of this Luke again wanders off from his friends on a wild hunch that he has to face Vader. Is brought before the Emperor, who easily goads him into attacking out of anger and fear. Only barely halts himself from destroying his father and then is about to be completely destroyed by the Emperor when Vader makes a choice to save him.

I got a very different vibe from this movie than you did.

I saw a Luke who had thought everything through in his plan to save Han. He sent the droids in first with his lightsaber both to give Jabba a chance to let Han go willingly and avoid killing but also to set up the second layer of his plan: Get Lando and Leia to infiltrate the palace and free him in the middle of the night. As a backup plan to that, just in case it didn't work, he showed up himself and tried to persuade Jabba to hand him over. Even if all of that failed, we go back to giving R2 his lightsaber so they can kill Jabba and make their retreat. They win mostly because of his planning 3 or 4 levels deep but also because of luck...but there's no such thing as luck, only the Force. He relied on the Force and it helped them. It helped them mostly because Luke was there and was a Jedi.

Later, he does make a mistake by going with them and risking the mission...but he does it because he trusts his feelings that his father will turn. Obi-Wan and Yoda have both told him over and over that he needs to let go. He needs to stop THINKING so much and instead do what FEELS right, because that's the way the Force works.

So, he feels it is right to go with them...and he's correct. Vader lets them through because he wants to confront his son. Without him there, he might have detected them anyways and NOT let them through because he had no reason to.

When he gets there, his feeling about his father is correct. He trusted in the Force and was right. As for him "easily" being goaded. He stands there for a while being constantly goaded and refuses to take the bait like 8 or 9 times before watching all of his friends die out the window finally breaks him and he thinks he needs to do something about the situation. That's not exactly "easily".

The point is that he DOES stop himself. He doesn't give in to anger in the end. He is wise enough to realize that's not how he's going to win. The only way he'll win is by trusting in his father. Trusting in the Light side of the Force. It's a huge gamble. But the Force rewards him by taking the high road by having his father save him.

 

[Morrus]

This, more than anything was my problem with TFA. They literally mention that the Republic exists and that it was in charge of the galaxy and that it was destroyed in lines of dialog without ever seeing it...as if the entire thing was an afterthought.

It was mentioned so quickly that most people I know didn't realize what they were saying in the movie. I talked to one of my friends who asked "Why isn't the Republic in TLJ? What happened to them? Shouldn't their ships come and help The Resistance?"

But that's because in TFA, they literally fired one beam that destroyed the Hosnian System and everything in those systems including all of the ships and 5 planets.

The movie never said, but I got the impression from it that the beam destroyed other systems two. The beam splits into many pieces and seems to hit multiple systems. They seem to mention the Hosnian system in particular because that's where the Senate and the entire Republic fleet was, but the movie gave me the impression that they also destroyed multiple other systems that were loyal to the Republic.

We see it from Maz’s castle, which places that in the Hosnian system.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

We see it from Maz’s castle, which places that in the Hosnian system.

Maz's castle is not in the Hosnian system. It is on Takodana in the Takodana system. Everyone in the galaxy can see the beam and they show it in multiple systems.

The novels explain that the beam is fired in hyperspace so the light from it can be seen at faster than light speeds.


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[Mercurius]

[MENTION=5143]Majoru Oakheart[/MENTION], nice heart-felt description of RotJ. While I feel that it is, overall, an inferior film to the first two, the sequence with Luke, the Emperor and Darth Vader is the very pinnacle of Star Wars to me. Best scenes in all of the movies.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

This, more than anything was my problem with TFA. They literally mention that the Republic exists and that it was in charge of the galaxy and that it was destroyed in lines of dialog without ever seeing it...as if the entire thing was an afterthought.

It was mentioned so quickly that most people I know didn't realize what they were saying in the movie. I talked to one of my friends who asked "Why isn't the Republic in TLJ? What happened to them? Shouldn't their ships come and help The Resistance?"

But that's because in TFA, they literally fired one beam that destroyed the Hosnian System and everything in those systems including all of the ships and 5 planets.

The movie never said, but I got the impression from it that the beam destroyed other systems two. The beam splits into many pieces and seems to hit multiple systems. They seem to mention the Hosnian system in particular because that's where the Senate and the entire Republic fleet was, but the movie gave me the impression that they also destroyed multiple other systems that were loyal to the Republic.

TLJ reiterates (again, in one line of dialog) that the blast destroyed every last remnant of The Republic.

I think because they didn't show it on screen, they didn't set up how big the Republic was and how thoroughly they were destroyed with that one shot that most people didn't get it. Heck, some people have seen both movies and STILL don't get it.

I think, to me, part of my problem is that we never got to see the achievements of the heroes of the old movies before they were torn now. We never saw the Republic being a force for good, the galaxy being in piece and Leia's dream coming true before it was destroyed, seeing the destruction only from a distance and described only in a line of dialog.

We didn't see Luke's temple working the way it was supposed to, a new promising group of students learning from their wise master and hero before we find out that it was destroyed and everyone killed.

We didn't see Han and Leia happy and the good times before their son went to the dark side and Han ran away and gave up on the Resistance.

So, as fans of the original movies we only see everything they've done being torn down. The good they've accomplished was downplayed or ignored and it certainly wasn't shown to us.

That is pretty much it for me. I kind of understand the desire to put the franchise pretty much right were it was in 1977 when SW came out since its a proven formula. I'm sure if they wouldn't have made the Force cry out with the rage of a million fanboys they would have just rebooted it. But to avoid that they kind of rebooted it by just retelling the first movie while keeping the original trilogy in cannon. But by doing that they really undercut the heroes and movies a lot of people grew up loving. In hindsight Luke is a crap Jedi* and Return of the Jedi was a bad title since they never really did return just one sad old joke and a new group of "Sith". Leia was a bad leader since her New Republic really lead to nothing, Han was just kind of pathetic. Not much of a father, apparently not much of a partner to Leia, and even lost his ship. Nothing they did was much good since a new breed of heroes ended up in the exact same place fighting a new Empire with a new Rebellion what 20 years later? And they made the new Vader stand in emo and kind of a mewling mess, I get the impression he cries a lot.

I understand that not everyone has that level of attachment to the old characters, or do and still like where this is going.

*Mark Hammil is calling this character Jake Skywalker in recent interviews since he doesn't think Luke would do any of this.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Yes, he makes mistakes in ESB. That's kind of the point. He needs to learn from them.



I got a very different vibe from this movie than you did.

I saw a Luke who had thought everything through in his plan to save Han. He sent the droids in first with his lightsaber both to give Jabba a chance to let Han go willingly and avoid killing but also to set up the second layer of his plan: Get Lando and Leia to infiltrate the palace and free him in the middle of the night. As a backup plan to that, just in case it didn't work, he showed up himself and tried to persuade Jabba to hand him over. Even if all of that failed, we go back to giving R2 his lightsaber so they can kill Jabba and make their retreat. They win mostly because of his planning 3 or 4 levels deep but also because of luck...but there's no such thing as luck, only the Force. He relied on the Force and it helped them. It helped them mostly because Luke was there and was a Jedi.

Later, he does make a mistake by going with them and risking the mission...but he does it because he trusts his feelings that his father will turn. Obi-Wan and Yoda have both told him over and over that he needs to let go. He needs to stop THINKING so much and instead do what FEELS right, because that's the way the Force works.

So, he feels it is right to go with them...and he's correct. Vader lets them through because he wants to confront his son. Without him there, he might have detected them anyways and NOT let them through because he had no reason to.

When he gets there, his feeling about his father is correct. He trusted in the Force and was right. As for him "easily" being goaded. He stands there for a while being constantly goaded and refuses to take the bait like 8 or 9 times before watching all of his friends die out the window finally breaks him and he thinks he needs to do something about the situation. That's not exactly "easily".

The point is that he DOES stop himself. He doesn't give in to anger in the end. He is wise enough to realize that's not how he's going to win. The only way he'll win is by trusting in his father. Trusting in the Light side of the Force. It's a huge gamble. But the Force rewards him by taking the high road by having his father save him.

I love you.

 

[Morrus]

Maz's castle is not in the Hosnian system. It is on Takodana in the Takodana system. Everyone in the galaxy can see the beam and they show it in multiple systems.

Han sees Hosnia (whatever it’s called) from outside the castle. You can’t see planets in other systems.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Han sees Hosnia (whatever it’s called) from outside the castle. You can’t see planets in other systems.

You'd think so. But JJ Abrams doesn't much care about physics:

https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/111528/is-takodana-in-the-hosnian-system


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