What defines D&D ?

[Thanael]

Well the original question originated with the "4E is not D&D anymore" comments. I just wanted to define what makes D&D D&D, to a) illustrate what makes D&D special and b) see if 4E can stil be considered D&D or not.

I must say PJ nailed it well.

 

[RandallS]

Philotomy's list is pretty close to mine...

• Class-and-level based PCs. (The more this gets diluted with skills systems, etc., the less like D&D it feels.)
• The 3-18 range for the classic array of abilities.
• Roll a d20 to attack, roll damage
• An abstract combat system with AC and hit points.
• "Vancian" magic; if that goes, I lose that D&D feeling

In fact, I'd only add two things:

• The rules are simple, open-ended, and easy to house-rule.
• The DM is the final rules authority for his campaign, not the rules as written, the game designer, or the company that published the rules.

 

[N0Man]

• A DM and a group of players.
• Fantasy setting.
• Treasures.
• Monsters.
• Magic items.
• Killing things and taking their stuff.
• Levels.
• Choices of Races with varying bonuses and abilities.
• Hit Points.
• Conflict, Task, and Combat resolution via rolling dice.
• Armored Fighters in melee with monsters.
• Lightly armored Rogues sneaking around, picking locks, sneak attacking, and disabling traps.
• Lightly armored and physically vulnerable Wizards slinging spells at the enemy, and casting other useful or amusing spells.
• Clerics healing the party, and generally keeping people alive.
• People arguing about rules.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

• A DM and a group of players.
• Fantasy setting.
• Treasures.
• Monsters.
• Magic items.
• Killing things and taking their stuff.
• Levels.
• Choices of Races with varying bonuses and abilities.
• Hit Points.
• Conflict, Task, and Combat resolution via rolling dice.
• Armored Fighters in melee with monsters.
• Lightly armored Rogues sneaking around, picking locks, sneak attacking, and disabling traps.
• Lightly armored and physically vulnerable Wizards slinging spells at the enemy, and casting other useful or amusing spells.
• Clerics healing the party, and generally keeping people alive.
• People arguing about rules.

Yet another vote for Rolemaster, I see...

 

[Vigilance]

1. Archetypal fantasy/sword and sorcery character classes
2. Levels
3. Abstract hit points
4. A tone and feel almost perfectly between Tolkien and RE Howard

 

[Mkhaiwati]

1. Archetypal fantasy/sword and sorcery character classes
2. Levels
3. Abstract hit points
4. A tone and feel almost perfectly between Tolkien and RE Howard

Rolemaster, again.....

(Had to beat PJ to the punch)

 

[Vigilance]

Rolemaster, again.....

(Had to beat PJ to the punch)

Sorry, but no.

Rolemaster did NOT have a RE Howard Sword and Sorcery feel, at least to me.

And yes, the ability to emulate either Tolkien or Conan is THE most important "feel" element of D&D to me.

 

[Aus_Snow]

And yes, the ability to emulate either Tolkien or Conan is THE most important "feel" element of D&D to me.

That's an interesting one. I'm not taking issue with what D&D is as far as you're concerned, just curious as to how D&D can emulate 'Tolkien', so to speak. For that matter, I'm not posting to say 'it can't' or the like, but I'm finding it a bit difficult to see how it does, or can. In fact, the magic and some other things also look way off, to really emulate 'REH', AFAICS.

I've seen some takes on 'Middle Earth 3e' (not to mention Midnight, too), and no doubt there are some for AD&D/BD&D, and there'll probably be some for 4e. However, in each case, they've either used extremely heavily modified rulesets, been truly awful, or both.

Likewise for Conan etc. - it can be done. . . kind of. As above, though.

Or am I just looking at D&D the wrong way, or missing something vital so as to grok?

 

[Vigilance]

That's an interesting one. I'm not taking issue with what D&D is as far as you're concerned, just curious as to how D&D can emulate 'Tolkien', so to speak. For that matter, I'm not posting to say 'it can't' or the like, but I'm finding it a bit difficult to see how it does, or can. In fact, the magic and some other things also look way off, to really emulate 'REH', AFAICS.

I've seen some takes on 'Middle Earth 3e' (not to mention Midnight, too), and no doubt there are some for AD&D/BD&D, and there'll probably be some for 4e. However, in each case, they've either used extremely heavily modified rulesets, been truly awful, or both.

Likewise for Conan etc. - it can be done. . . kind of. As above, though.

Or am I just looking at D&D the wrong way, or missing something vital so as to grok?

Well, when I say emulate, I don't mean that I expect an addition of D&D to serve as a replacement for a Conan OGL game.

What I'm saying is that the mechanics CAN evoke that feel. For example, you could easily create an adventure that would feel like the fight with the cave troll/escape from the goblins/confrontation with the Balrog from LOTR.

Just make Gandalf an NPC, use him as a plot device to remove the Balrog, and you could even do it with the RAW.

Similarly, you could run the robbery of the Elephant Tower from Conan using D&D.

To me, the fact that I *could* run these iconic adventures if I wanted to, one Tolkien epic fantasy, one RE Howard sword and sorcery, is something great and vital about D&D.

As opposed to, say, Rolemaster. Yes, RM has classes and so forth. But RM also has that stupid crazy critical hit table, that has allowed (and I am saying I physically witnessed this) a rat (a normal rat) to critically injure an awake, armed player character through sheer dumb luck of the dice.

It's that nasty crit table, which frequently makes the game feel like a Monte Python and the Holy Grail game more than anything else, that separates RM from D&D and prevents it from emulating Tolkien *OR* Howard (yes, NPCs die in spectacularly bloody ways in Sword and Sorcery, but Conan never had to worry about getting ambushed by a badger).

 

[Aus_Snow]

Ah. Now I grok. Well, a bit more than before. Cheers.

And yeah, those crit tables do need some work or some pretty radical house ruling. Mind you, I haven't seen the latest version (classic? something like that) and I haven't given HARP a go either. Maybe they're a bit more, er, sane in that way.