What Epic Monster types do you most want to see?

[Anabstercorian]

Well, to be fair to undead, they suffer from a lot of limitations in epic levels. They need rediculous HD to have enough HP and BAB to threaten the average character, which means if you give them those HD, their save DCs are also inflated. (They also have way too many feats because of this)

Not a problem in 4e, blessedly. When the 4e SRD comes out, I imagine that UK will be able to work faster, since there'll be much less of a stigma to fudging the numbers.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Ltheb mate!

Well, to be fair to undead, they suffer from a lot of limitations in epic levels. They need rediculous HD to have enough HP and BAB to threaten the average character, which means if you give them those HD, their save DCs are also inflated. (They also have way too many feats because of this) And their best defenses, like being immune to crits and many kinds of spells, don't mean anything in epic.

I know, they can be really annoying to get right, but I have some ideas with regards the Umbrals that I think lets them compete without overinflating their Hit Dice.

As for umbrals, I really liked the artwork in the bestiary of the Unelemental. In a recent anime, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, the end villain looked just like one! (And had a strange echoing voice and a mishapen mouth which had the end result of making him really creepy) He was drawn as sort of a flickering chalkboard caricature. Sadly, he was only in a few scenes and never given a name. (I think people on the internet refered to him as 'Chalkman' but he isn't given a name in the series; to be fair, he was the collective hivemind of a super-advanced race)

So something different from Anti-Spiral then?

So, I do like the Un-beings quite a bit, mainly because if described right they can really freak out PCs and they have qualities that make them decent threats as epic monsters.

Yes, permanent damage will be the least of their worries.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Anabstercorian dude!

Not a problem in 4e, blessedly. When the 4e SRD comes out, I imagine that UK will be able to work faster, since there'll be much less of a stigma to fudging the numbers.

Not to mention lower numbers all round (Time Lords will be in around level 100 I envision).

I have been giving some thought to what these beings should and shouldn't be able to do in relation to the "what constitutes a world threat" in D&D.

If a 30th+ level Monster can threaten all life on a planet then a 60th+ level monster (in a 4E where 60 is the most powerful Greater God) should be able to threaten a galaxy and 90th+ a universe.

But you then imagine that if you can threaten a galaxy you could probably physically obliterate a planet (as per the Star Wars Empire) either through personal power or tech or somesuch.

So if you can destroy a planet then your peers must be tougher than planets to destroy, and thats something you have to represent in the mechanics. The trick being of course not to make each subsequent level too much better than the last to maintain interaction.

It remains to be seen how easy it will be to go from 4E's 30th-level to planet destroying power. Its possible that sort of power may only be available (at 60th-level or thereabouts) through Rituals or similar. Remembering that the Suel-Baklunish war on Oerth had both sides unleashing magical conflagrations akin to a Nuclear War. The Invoked Devastation and the Rain of Colourless Fire respectively.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

...
So something different from Anti-Spiral then?
...

Well, from what I could tell from the anime, the only time they refered to him as Anti-Spiral was when somewhat asked what he was. Being the collective consciousness of the Anti-Spiral race, assigning a name like Tod just wouldn't work. "The Anti-Spiral" seems more of a title, so if he had a name, either I didn't catch it in the show, (Not likely) or it was known only to the developers.
Nonetheless, he was very cool. (Even if he was in all of 1.25 episodes)

 

[paradox42]

Welcome back paradox42 mate!

I trust you have been well?

Well enough. My game has continued apace, I just took a few months off from ENWorld because I was spending too much time on it. Originally. Then for a few weeks I wasn't going back on because I was afraid to face the backlog and slog through it all, plus I felt I was getting on fine without it so there was little motivation. But eventually some side comments by one of my players who sometimes reads the site led me to finally get off my duff and read the posts referred to, which in turn led me to slog through that backlog (it was actually easier than I'd supposed it would be, though probably in part due to me avoiding the 4E threads this time around and just sticking to the news posts).

I may take you up on that and use it in the eventual Dragon mini-supplement.

You have my email of course, and with it my real name, so trading whatever personal information is necessary shouldn't be a problem. I'd be happy to have my contribution honored with inclusion.

The recent discussion (which you may have missed) about Elder Evils and what constitutes a world threat got me thinking a little.

I did slog through the backlog, so I didn't miss it. I actually went out and got the book myself on the strength of that discussion, and enjoyed the read even if the beasts presented are absurdly low-level for the threats they supposedly represent. I did want to actually stat up, however, the full moon-sized Atropus, and the completed/reintegrated Pandorym. The Leviathan might be fun to do too, eventually, though just doing a Macrobe Pleiseosaur would probably be good enough. The plots themselves are of course designed for sub-Epic characters, which means they're not suitable to my games in any case: if I have a world-ending threat it's going to be faced by Epic characters or gods.

Undead seem to be doing poorly in the poll which I find really strange. I definately thought I under represented them in the first Bestiary.

You did, in the sense that Nightshades and Qlippoth weren't included. Those will be Undead too, yes? Nightshades in the Monster manual are, at any rate, and if Qlippoth are supposed to be super-Nightshades (and certainly the Void Dragon as an example supports that notion even if your further comments in reply to me didn't) then they would be as well.

Taking that into account I think Undead are actually doing rather well in the polling- it's just a pointer to what sorts of Undead people are most interested in seeing.

Well, to be fair to undead, they suffer from a lot of limitations in epic levels. They need rediculous HD to have enough HP and BAB to threaten the average character, which means if you give them those HD, their save DCs are also inflated. (They also have way too many feats because of this) And their best defenses, like being immune to crits and many kinds of spells, don't mean anything in epic.

I definitely like the notion of making that new ability introduced in recent WotC supplements, Unholy Toughness, a feat. Or just plain adding it to Undead as a Trait, even. For those who don't know what that ability is, it means the Undead critter that has the ability gets to add its CHA modifier to its hit points like normal creatures add their CON. It definitely helps bring things back into balance. My players and I recently had a discussion on this topic during a game session, in fact, due to the fact that one of the players recently ascended to godhood and took Death as one of his Portfolios. Since that makes him Undead now, and thus with no CON score, he lost half his hit points in the bargain.

So, I do like the Un-beings quite a bit, mainly because if described right they can really freak out PCs and they have qualities that make them decent threats as epic monsters.

I played up the Un-Beings in my game for months of real time before ever introducing one- and when I finally did, the 30th-level party actually ran away (well, Teleported away) in terror from a Small-sized Unelemental. I had mixed feelings about that- on the one hand it was delightful having something that I could scare them that badly with, plus hilarious to contemplate when one compares the player characters' stats with the monster's, but on the other I was disappointed that no actual combat took place and part of me felt like accusing them of wimping out. The next time I threw one at the party was during a rest period so they didn't want to run then, and the party Sorceress one-shotted it with a low-level spell, so they learned it wasn't really so tough. They all seemed to think they got lucky with that, though, and no doubt if I ever send another one after them they'll do their best to play Keep-Away again.

 

[Alzrius]

I definitely like the notion of making that new ability introduced in recent WotC supplements, Unholy Toughness, a feat.

Way ahead of you there, Paradox. I wrote up Unholy Toughness as a feat in Mega-Feats Vol. II, kindly published by the Skortched Urf' Studios people. It also has a number of other feats (and flaws) for the undead, such as Unholy Fortitude (apply your Cha bonus to your Fort saves), Tenacious Animating Force (continue to exist down to -10 hp), and others.

[/shameless plug]

Ahem, anyway, I agree that the type of undead people are voting for counts too. Unelementals, Qlippoths et al seem interesting, but I'm far more interested in templates such as the welkin, zombie king, and strigoi.

That said, U_K's latest update on his website seems to indicate that he'll be having a monster-design contest soon, so you could always design an undead that (un)lives up to what you're wanting to see (heck, I may do that myself).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Ltheb mate!

Well, from what I could tell from the anime, the only time they refered to him as Anti-Spiral was when somewhat asked what he was. Being the collective consciousness of the Anti-Spiral race, assigning a name like Tod just wouldn't work. "The Anti-Spiral" seems more of a title, so if he had a name, either I didn't catch it in the show, (Not likely) or it was known only to the developers.
Nonetheless, he was very cool. (Even if he was in all of 1.25 episodes)

Are there any websites on that anime with artwork? The youtube clips are cool but they don't really give more than fleeting glances at these beings.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy!

Well enough. My game has continued apace, I just took a few months off from ENWorld because I was spending too much time on it. Originally. Then for a few weeks I wasn't going back on because I was afraid to face the backlog and slog through it all, plus I felt I was getting on fine without it so there was little motivation. But eventually some side comments by one of my players who sometimes reads the site led me to finally get off my duff and read the posts referred to, which in turn led me to slog through that backlog (it was actually easier than I'd supposed it would be, though probably in part due to me avoiding the 4E threads this time around and just sticking to the news posts).

Well its good to have you back.

You have my email of course, and with it my real name, so trading whatever personal information is necessary shouldn't be a problem. I'd be happy to have my contribution honored with inclusion.

I did slog through the backlog, so I didn't miss it. I actually went out and got the book myself on the strength of that discussion, and enjoyed the read even if the beasts presented are absurdly low-level for the threats they supposedly represent.

True, but as with the Fiendish Codex its understandable why they did what they did.

I did want to actually stat up, however, the full moon-sized Atropus, and the completed/reintegrated Pandorym. The Leviathan might be fun to do too, eventually, though just doing a Macrobe Pleiseosaur would probably be good enough. The plots themselves are of course designed for sub-Epic characters, which means they're not suitable to my games in any case: if I have a world-ending threat it's going to be faced by Epic characters or gods.

I'm planning on giving a few guidelines for converting Elder Evils on the website when I get a chance (the basic premise being to double the CR of the 'Evil'), although whether that will give results that meet your requirements is unknown.

While I'm here I suppose though...

Atropus: Elder One with 133 HD. But needs the full suite of divine abilities added.

Atropus (Moon) < Ego (Planet) < Algol (Star)...interesting.

Father Llymic: Could be anything from a Quasi-deity to a Lesser Deity.

Hulks of Zoretha: Would make sense for each of the Hulks to be equal to one of your PCs. Otherwise setting each in the CR 32 range should suffice.

Leviathan: 133 HD (Macro-Fine, as per EE rules) or 266 HD (Macro-Diminutive as per doubled EE rules). I sort of like the 133 HD version here as it puts the Leviathan in the same bracket as Godzilla (although that said, a same size quadruped wouldn't look that threatening to a biped, so maybe it needs to be bigger to give it Godzilla-foe status). Though I would perhaps bring the in EE Leviathan 'Aspect' up to 66 HD (Avatar rather than Aspect) and we could say its the offspring of the true Leviathan.

Pandorym: Definately a 200 HD Old One, with the 50 HD Mind Shard acting as an Aspect.

Ragnorra: Given her write-up. I place her at a very weak Sidereal, say 120 HD, although she needs a full divine suite of powers because she is relatively very weak (in terms of CR) compared to her HD.

Sertrous: Given his history, it would appear that weak demigod (CR 44) should be sufficient (therefore about 35 or 36 HD in my estimation) to give him Demon Prince status (under IH rules).

Kyuss: As with Sertrous, weak demigod (30 HD) fits well here.

Zargon: Ruled the 9 Hells and was the father of the Ancient Baatorians (In the IH the Maskim are the plural kings of the Ancient Baatorians so Zargon to be above them, Emperor as such, would require him to be in the Intermediate God type power bracket, which suggests 72 HD). Of all the Elder Evils I like the idea of pushing his anti-deity suite of powers the most.

Overview:

Atropus: 133 HD Elder One, with 66 HD Intermediate Deity Avatar and lots of 33 HD Demigod Aspects running around.
Father Llymic: 48 HD Lesser Deity.
Hulks of Zoretha: 32 HD Demi-deities(?).
Leviathan: 133 HD (Macro-Fine) Monster (not divine), Children of Leviathan 66 HD (Titanic) Monsters.
Pandorym: 200 HD Old One, with 50 HD Aspect(s) (the Mind Shard).
Ragnorra: 120 HD Elder One
Sertrous: 36 HD Demi-deity (Obyrith Demon Prince)
Kyuss: 30 HD Demi-deity
Zargon 72 HD Intermediate Deity

You did, in the sense that Nightshades and Qlippoth weren't included.

Those will be Undead too, yes? Nightshades in the Monster manual are, at any rate, and if Qlippoth are supposed to be super-Nightshades (and certainly the Void Dragon as an example supports that notion even if your further comments in reply to me didn't) then they would be as well.

The Umbrals are the partial natives of the dimension of Entropy (since nothing truly exists in Entropy), only where its borders touch other dimensions do such beings manifest. Often caused by the true deaths of immortals, whereas Nightshades are probably mortal derived. So similar, but different.

Taking that into account I think Undead are actually doing rather well in the polling- it's just a pointer to what sorts of Undead people are most interested in seeing.

I suppose.

I definitely like the notion of making that new ability introduced in recent WotC supplements, Unholy Toughness, a feat. Or just plain adding it to Undead as a Trait, even. For those who don't know what that ability is, it means the Undead critter that has the ability gets to add its CHA modifier to its hit points like normal creatures add their CON. It definitely helps bring things back into balance. My players and I recently had a discussion on this topic during a game session, in fact, due to the fact that one of the players recently ascended to godhood and took Death as one of his Portfolios. Since that makes him Undead now, and thus with no CON score, he lost half his hit points in the bargain.

Certainly makes sense for a PC.

I played up the Un-Beings in my game for months of real time before ever introducing one- and when I finally did, the 30th-level party actually ran away (well, Teleported away) in terror from a Small-sized Unelemental. I had mixed feelings about that- on the one hand it was delightful having something that I could scare them that badly with, plus hilarious to contemplate when one compares the player characters' stats with the monster's, but on the other I was disappointed that no actual combat took place and part of me felt like accusing them of wimping out. The next time I threw one at the party was during a rest period so they didn't want to run then, and the party Sorceress one-shotted it with a low-level spell, so they learned it wasn't really so tough. They all seemed to think they got lucky with that, though, and no doubt if I ever send another one after them they'll do their best to play Keep-Away again.

Its pretty cool though that you have them running scared...as it should be.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Alzrius mate!

Way ahead of you there, Paradox. I wrote up Unholy Toughness as a feat in Mega-Feats Vol. II, kindly published by the Skortched Urf' Studios people. It also has a number of other feats (and flaws) for the undead, such as Unholy Fortitude (apply your Cha bonus to your Fort saves), Tenacious Animating Force (continue to exist down to -10 hp), and others.

[/shameless plug]

Looks pretty cool, I'll mention it on my news page on the next update.

Ahem, anyway, I agree that the type of undead people are voting for counts too. Unelementals, Qlippoths et al seem interesting, but I'm far more interested in templates such as the welkin, zombie king, and strigoi.

About a month or so ago, I really did a good breakdown of all the epic undead I want to cover so there are something like 60+ Undead waiting in the wings...or should that be waiting in the shadows ready to POUNCE!

That said, U_K's latest update on his website seems to indicate that he'll be having a monster-design contest soon, so you could always design an undead that (un)lives up to what you're wanting to see (heck, I may do that myself).

That should lead to some spooky encounters.

I'll probably post all the monsters on the website and choose the best 3 (or thereabouts) for inclusion in one of the books. Or perhaps start a thread herein for the monsters and then run a poll to find out the top 3 voted by all of you (since the last poll was so well attended).

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Howdy Ltheb mate!



Are there any websites on that anime with artwork? The youtube clips are cool but they don't really give more than fleeting glances at these beings.

Well, if you don't mind spoilers...
[sblock]Last episode. Not much in the way of chalkman, but still the most epic thing ever.
http://www.stage6.com/user/JDWV/video/2035300/Tengen-Toppa-Gurren-Lagann-27-(Eng-Sub)[/sblock]
Otherwise he doesn't appear much. He's just sort of a shadowy... thing. He probably only has all of 10 minutes of total screen time between Episodes 26-27...
But his 'mech' certainly steals the show in 27...