What is OSR about?

[PapersAndPaychecks]

Indeed. So, BFRPG and OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord and Swords & Wizardry, are "not OSR"? And The Spire of Iron and Crystal, The People of the Pit, Death Frost Doom, White Dragon Run, Earth Unleashed -- are "not OSR"? All that playing and writing and sharing are "not OSR"?

In that case, P&P, what "is OSR"?

This is my personal view, not a definitive statement.

Imagine a Venn diagram with three ellipses that overlap. One's labelled "OSR", one's labelled "Retro-clone" and one's labelled "New wave of pre-3e material." (Optionally, envisage that the "Retro-clone" ellipse actually overlaps a fourth ellipse called "Open Gaming movement".)

BFRPG, OSRIC, LL and S&W are somewhere in the "Retro-clone" ellipse, while (say) "People of the Pit" is in the bit where "Retro-clone" overlaps "New wave". Aside from that they're neutral: not necessarily part of the OSR, but not necessarily out of it either.

Hackmaster and C&C aren't in the "Retro-clone" ellipse, not being precisely retro-clones, but they're arguably somewhere in the "New wave".

In the way that I'm using words, the OSR is that bit of the blogosphere and the forumsphere where people discuss and often proselytise material that they believe to be "old-school".

So for example there are people who evangelise for C&C, who would be in the "New wave" and in the "OSR" but not necessarily in the "Retro-clone" movement. (Interestingly, Gary Gygax himself, in his later years, would have been one of these.) Or for example, Joe Browning of Expeditious Retreat would be in the "Retro-clone" movement and squarely in the middle of the "New wave", but a quick look at his blog would tell you that Joe isn't really in the OSR.

Does that make sense? All this is crystal clear to me but I fear I might be having trouble explaining it.

 

[JohnRTroy]

Is it really that difficult to understand that years of people using it as a slight has given it that connotation? It's the equivalent of "video-gamey" for 3e and 4e. Video games in and of themselves aren't bad, but "video-gamey" is edition war shorthand for "your game sucks". Likewise "nostalgia" has become edition war shorthand for "you're a deluded old luddite who is too scared of change to recognize the obvious superiority of newer games".

Well, I hate to say it, but nostalgia is a real word with a real meaning (and I am using the modern term, not the 18th century version which just tried to define it as a combination of homesickness and battle fatigue). It is only an insult when used as such. The term "video-gamey" is worded a little as a putdown, and it's a slang term. (Video game is not an adjective). Even that is not as bad as "threetard" or "fouron", which are portmanteus of Retard and Moron.

I am not going to avoid using the term nostalgia to define some of the old school when it is very clear that parts of it are aimed at nostalgia. (Just tell me for instance that those homage covers to early TSR covers that Goodman Games did, for instance, or the use of Century Gothic fonts on some products or even games like Hackmaster is anything other than nostalgia-aimed) Those being over-sensitive to the use of the term...jeez, assuming most of the fans were alive back then--you are at least 40 or 50 years old! If you can't hear the word nostalgia in a normal context without going crazy, how the hell will you be able to teach your kids and grandkids to ignore such petty insults.

I don't fully understand the OSR. There's an extent to which it seems to be about nerd-rage, self-justification ("our game is better than your game and here's why") and evangelism (on the apparent theory that if you once try a Gygaxian game you'll be "cured" of enjoying later editions).

The key thing is evangelism and exclusionary attitudes are mutually exclusive. If you actually would like the old school games to grow--and they would need new blood willing to try it to do it--you can't present a "bitter haters" club. I see this more on the forums than the stuff you and the others are doing with the actual rules. Sometimes people are mad at your stuff and the subsequent retro-clone movement because it "invalidates the real AD&D", for instance, and I think it's not productive to do that.

 

[robconley]

Indeed. So, BFRPG and OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord and Swords & Wizardry, are "not OSR"? And The Spire of Iron and Crystal, The People of the Pit, Death Frost Doom, White Dragon Run, Earth Unleashed -- are "not OSR"? All that playing and writing and sharing are "not OSR"?

To throw my two cents worth in, the OSR is one of those terms that will be defined by how people use it. I mostly use it in reference to the D&D centric old school community and use Old School to mean all the older RPGs (early D&D, Traveller, Runequest, etc) that are current enjoying a resurgence.

But like nearly all things in the OSR, my definition, even the very label the group applies to itself is disagreement. The point I hammer on is that the only thing that ties all of these disparate groups together is they agree that older editions are as much fun to play today as back in the day. Everything else depends on who you are talking about.

Plus not everybody can be pegged to a single community. I wrote the Majestic Wilderlands, Points of Light, and had a hand in writing the Wilderlands Boxed Set. But I write a blog with a somewhat large audience (hundreds) plus currently my own publisher, Bat in the Attic Games. And I hang out at Knights-n-Knaves, Dragonsfoot, Swords & Wizardry Forum, and the Original D&D discussion forum. So which group I am part of? All of them? Some? Or none?

All of this the result of the fine folks who did the retro-clones and using the open gaming liscense. While not everybody in the OSR, my definition, uses the OGL it was the seed that the OSR crystallized around and give it's free wheeling chaotic nature.

Which of course makes it all terribly confusing for those who are new and trying to make heads and tails on what going on. Some may criticize the OSR, my definition, because of this but right now there is no way to change it.

It may be that a single company has a big enough hit to be considered THE OSR by the rest of the industry but even that won't stop the existing authors and producers from continuing what they do as long as they want to do it.

Mmm, that quite a bit for two cents, lets make it a nickel worth then

 

[JohnRTroy]

So for example there are people who evangelise for C&C, who would be in the "New wave" and in the "OSR" but not necessarily in the "Retro-clone" movement. (Interestingly, Gary Gygax himself, in his later years, would have been one of these.)

Interestingly enough, I think if somebody like you had come out with OSRIC first (and probably as a publisher and not as a free rule set), Gygax might have supported that. When Gary wrote his manuscripts for Yggsburg, for instance, he used AD&D short-hand--somebody else converted it to C&C rules. At one point he was mad when I added something using 3e shorthand and got pissed when I showed him that I was using the draft C&C SRD. (That was back in 2004 and I felt guilty that I might had accidentally cancelled the project, although it got back under control).

I think the fact he stayed with C&C was because (a) he was very loyal to his partners, and understood that the Trolls were trying to keep the spirit alive as well as they could based on their own legal analysis and (b) even if OSRIC was available, I think for EGG in particular he didn't want to risk even the hint of risk, as he suffered from a suit over Dangerous Journeys and would never open himself to extra risk. (He was probably a bit more "new wave" as he favored his new game Lejendary Adventures above AD&D however).

 

[robconley]

Anyone else think that there's a "Lost School" covering the late 1E/most of 2E/later BECMI material, with Elmore/Caldwell/Easley art (and others like Stephen Fabian, who's criminally underappreciated), more setting- and story-focused gaming, and a less nasty, brutish, swords & sorcery feel, that sort of gets lost amid the OSR, the 3E/Pathfinder, and the 4E groups? Or is it just me?

Wait until the late 2010's or early 2020's. I think it will be in full force then. Not to say they won't be stuff done before then. The reason is nostaglia and older adult having kids or more time to play the stuff they like when younger. Nostaglia won't the sole reason for a 2e resurgence but give that initial push to allow it continue on it's own. I also think the various settings will play a bigger part in a 2e resurgence since that was a big part of the product line.

This is all speculation of course.

 

[JohnRTroy]

Wait until the late 2010's or early 2020's. I think it will be in full force then. Not to say they won't be stuff done before then. The reason is nostaglia and older adult having kids or more time to play the stuff they like when younger. Nostaglia won't the sole reason for a 2e resurgence but give that initial push to allow it continue on it's own. I also think the various settings will play a bigger part in a 2e resurgence since that was a big part of the product line.

This is all speculation of course.

Well, technically I think nostalgia starts 20 rather than 30 years in the past. Usually around 30 is when you start to want to hear the pop music hits from your past. But it's sort of nebulous. We'll probably be starting with the 90s oldies pretty soon. (Although the 80s oldies BS themselves by never using the term "oldies", instead saying "back to the 80s" or some other euphamism.)

Although in music, it is never too early for 90s nostalgia.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYj2sTWUx5g]YouTube - NEW VIDEO !! Dr Alban vs Haddaway - I love the 90´s[/ame]



[And yeah, it's not Grunge or Lillith Fair, but I'm a dance music fan...]

In all seriousness though, I think 2e might not be as strong as 1e because back during the D&D "fad" days, there were a lot more new gamers, and also if you started gaming in 1980, there was less options available. Some gamers in the 90s might have ignored D&D and gone with Vampire or the other alternatives. That's a possibility, but I won't rule out a 2e revival.

We are starting to see it. Dragonsfoot has been host to several people who were part of the 2e era.

 

[Ariosto]

If you can't hear the word nostalgia in a normal context without going crazy, how the hell will you be able to teach your kids and grandkids to ignore such petty insults.

If you can't hear
(A) that it is not a "normal context" with which people disagree, and
(B) that it is not "going crazy" to point out that "just nostalgia" is a misrepresentation
-- then a straw man may be interfering with your listening.

 

[JohnRTroy]

If you can't hear
(A) that it is not a "normal context" with which people disagree, and
(B) that it is not "going crazy" to point out that "just nostalgia" is a misrepresentation
-- then a straw man may be interfering with your listening.

Keep in mind I was replying to Ourph, where he implied the very word itself was tainted.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

Interestingly enough, I think if somebody like you had come out with OSRIC first (and probably as a publisher and not as a free rule set), Gygax might have supported that. When Gary wrote his manuscripts for Yggsburg, for instance, he used AD&D short-hand--somebody else converted it to C&C rules. At one point he was mad when I added something using 3e shorthand and got pissed when I showed him that I was using the draft C&C SRD. (That was back in 2004 and I felt guilty that I might had accidentally cancelled the project, although it got back under control).

I think the fact he stayed with C&C was because (a) he was very loyal to his partners, and understood that the Trolls were trying to keep the spirit alive as well as they could based on their own legal analysis and (b) even if OSRIC was available, I think for EGG in particular he didn't want to risk even the hint of risk, as he suffered from a suit over Dangerous Journeys and would never open himself to extra risk. (He was probably a bit more "new wave" as he favored his new game Lejendary Adventures above AD&D however).

From my own correspondence with Gary, I have several reasons to think this post is right on the money.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

Keep in mind I was replying to Ourph, where he implied the very word itself was tainted.

It's not tainted, but I think it's pretty clear that people find "nostalgia" slighting and, rightly or wrongly, they're taking offence. Perhaps it would be gentlemanly of you to find an alternative phrasing?