FrankTrollman said:
No. Imagine for a second that you were taking Sorcerer - a class which gets its new powerful spells one level later for no damned reason at all. Now imagine that you were being a Mystic Theurge and delaying your new spell levels by 3 more levels. And then that you needed to balance two sets of skills without a good int bonus.
I disagree. The one level you lag behind more than a wiz/clr isn't that bad. Also, both classes can make something out of charisma, and the skillsets aren't that different - knowledge (arcana), knowledge (religion), spellcraft, concentration. The only thing that isn't in both classes is the knowledge (religion) - and you do get it with mystic theurge. Sure, clr/wiz is more streamlined, but only munchkins take but the optimal choices.
The Wizard/Cleric MyTh is jacked on synnergy in many ways (so much so that the often quoted 20th level MyTh who casts as a 17th level Wizard and a 13th level Cleric would actually have more Clerical spells by just taking three more levels of Wizard and using his extra spell slots on Summon Monster to get Celestials who cast Cleric Spells) - the Sorcerer/Cleric MyTh gets punched in the balls even more.
Of course you have to give something up to ge BOTH stuff. I don't even allow to unbalance the class levels in that way -> no wiz7/clr3/mt10. I allow the class only if the player agrees on keeping it even more or less. But while you might give up some of the most powerful spells, you do gain both brands of magic. You have good elemental attack spells, good save-or-die-spells good protections, good utility....
Multiclassing Spellcasters = Suck. That's been true since 3rd edition came out and nothing has broken that rule. Ever.
If you mean a clr/wiz character, it is right more or less, although I believe the mystic theurge did break that rules. But spellcaster/nonspellcaster can be quite effective.
Assuming the 3.5 rulesset, the Bard is pretty decent at low level. You have a lower BAB, but you can sing in combat to maintain your to-hit bonus and assist the rest of the party. Unfortunately, 3.5 has punished the Perform Skill heavily and still doesn't give Bards anything worthwhile to do at high level so the character is going to become boring to play and frustratingly underpowered if you intend to go past about 8th level.
Bards can be a good choice up to 20th and beyond. Don't expect to be the best in anything (except social skills), but you are still decent in most things.
Yeah. In low level play - the 3.5 Bard is entertaining and just powerful enough that the other players won't beat you to death for being useless in combat and quite powerful outside of combat.
Maybe his party isn't a bunch of munchkins and likes to have some party member with uses outside of combat. And he's not useless in combat, either...
3.5 nerfed Perform, so you'll have to choose whether you play an instrument (which can be done while casting spells), or sing (which can be done while fighting). That makes all bards fit into two categories and makes them frustratingly similar later in play.
Or you just take both. This leaves you another skillpoint from the recent increase from 4 to 6, which can be put into yet another perform skill, or a knowledge skill, or anything else. Besides, there are quite a lot of instruments, and quite a lot of ways to use you voice, so there is variety in there. After all, the fighter is also only someone who uses a weapon.
Zaruthustran said:
What works best for high charisma builds? Is Sor/Cleric/Mystic Theurge viable? How about a Sor/Pal, or Sor/Cleric? Or straight up Bard?
Sor/Clr/Mt: should work. Don't expect to be best in any kind of magic (that's not what being multiclass is all about, anyway), but you will have access to most spells. Both classes can use charisma (although your turning isn't that good with as few cleric levels as you have) and noone said you couldn't have a decent Int stat, too, for skills (this build is a pure spellcaster, not a combat caster as you find with clerics often. But on the other hand, you can get both divine power and tenser's transformation eventually). Be a buffer and spellslinger.
For ultimate synergy of charisma, you might want to become a sorcerer/shugenja/mystic theurge....
Sor/Clr: Wouldn't do that. You just lose to much. While the mystic theurge will lessen the loss you get from multiclassing (and make it a good choice after all), you will lag way behind here.
Sor/Pal: Try to talk your DM into loosing the multiclass restrictions of the paladin. But this build should work, too. Pal12/Sor8 is nice cause you get 4 attacks eventually. Concentrate on buff spells, and other spells that help you in melee. Look up the bladesinger spell list for pointers (found in RoF, Blood and Tome or the free web enhancement of the latter)
Bard: This is another good choice. The charisma will work for your spells, for your performance, and for a lot of your skills. You will probably be the most effective character outside of combat (and that is what having high charisma is all about) and be a good addition to the party in combat. You won't be best in anything - besides negotiating and the like - but you will be decent in anything you do. You can focus on one thing or do several things at once. You will be able to accomplish something on your own, and you will be the front of the party, and if you already have the 4 monster food types (fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue), the bard is the ideal addition to the party. And you are really good in Use Magic Device.
You have forgotten one build: The Rogue! They also get much out of charisma. Expect to be a skill user first and foremost, but with a maxed out bluff (and Combat Expertise and Improved Feint), you can sneak attack almost anyone, even without sneaking or flanking. And don't underestimate the power of a character with the focus outside of battle: the pen can be more powerful than the sword, and your mouth can outclass both! Take the two feats described above and Weapon Finesse, and you're effective enough in combat. You may want to multiclass into bard. Either way, you can also Use Magic Device.
If you want (and are allowed) to play nonstandard races, consider the fey'ri for your rogue built! With your inherent ability to change your shape, your skills and a decent charisma, you will be a great spy and infiltrator. And the daemonic abilities you get help you further.
