What's your opinion on "Save or Die" effects?

[Immortal Sun]

I generally dislike SoD and other one-shot mechanics, I find them dull.

I think most attacks should be teaching the players and their PCs about the monster they're fighting, and you can't learn anything if you're dead (or have to reroll a new character with none of that knowledge). I don't mind SoD's and other potential one-shot mechanics when they're translated (there's some indication the "Big One" is about to happen). I just don't enjoy SoD's coming out of the blue.

 

[Celebrim]

I think the general rule is this:

Save or Anything should be extraordinarily rare in any case where the Anything represents something the party can't recover from. So, 'save or turn to stone' should be an extraordinarily unusual problem to face prior to 'stone to flesh' being available as a curative. 'Save or die' should be an extraordinarily rare problem to face prior to resurrection and the like being available.

One possible fix for this is to make 'save or die' turn into, "Save or be dying". That is to say, instead of saying that "save or die" leaves you dead, say that it leaves you at negative hit points such that if someone else isn't around to save your bacon quickly, you will probably die.

You could also replace "save or die" with "save or take a bunch of damage which may well kill you on the spot". This is something like the same thing, but gives you some granularity the absolutely your dead path doesn't.

My biggest problem with removing "save or die" is that thematically, it's often right. As such, I find it better to just telegraph the danger to give the party time to get ready for it than I do trying to remove them entirely and replacing them with fairer but less thematic mechanics - like having the gaze of a medusa slowly turn the gnome into stone rather than having it happen all at once. One may be more gameamble, but it in no way captures the ideas of the fictional inspiration or any of the fiction based on it.

 

[ccs]

Yeah, this. If the DM isn't committed to PCs dying, then save-or-dies should be of the table.

But even then . . . in my megadungeon campaign* where I am totally committed to PCs dying, I still tend to avoid save-or-dies. The latest trap I wrote up involves a collapsing ceiling, which I think was the sort of thing that would be automatic death in the earliest editions. I pulled back a bit on that instinct , however. Instead I have the trap severe lethal damage (20d6) and a save, but the survivors remaim buried alive under the rubble - if they can't be rescued or free themselves they will still die.

I kind of find save-or-dies boring.

I have a suggestion for the OP: instead of making the petrification instantaneous . . . er, instantaneously permanent, have it work someone like this: on a failed save the target is petrified and begins turning to stone. At the end of the target's following turns, he must make a Constitution save. If successful, the effect ends. On a failure he suffers 1d10 damage (or whatever value makes sense). If the target is reduced to 0 hit points, the petrification becomes permanent.



*Hey, is there a forum macro I could use to automate this, instead of typing it out everytime?

I don't know. But for that bit of my Moldvay BASIC book about everything being changeable that I quote all the time? I just saved a copy as a file in my system. When I need it, just a few clicks &....

 

[Zardnaar]

I'm fine with it on certain monsters, but it's also how well saves scale. Medusa are a good example.

Telegraph where possible I'm home.

 

[Shiroiken]

IMO, save-or-die abilities should be available tools for the DM to use, but a good DM will use them sparingly. An entire adventure based around petrification is a bit on the crazy side, but could work with a combination of mid to high level and proper preparation (mirrors, scrolls/potions, etc.). Using them occasionally keeps the players on their toes, and always paranoid

Some of the best uses of save-or-die effects in 5E I've seen:

Party enters a large room in a castle under the tower they need to enter. Cages line the walls, and a pulley elevator sits in the middle that should go up into the tower. Due to the dim light, nothing is seen in the cages, so the party approaches the elevator. Before they get on, the rogue (me) decides to check it out first, and notices part of the pulley system doesn't belong. I figure it to be a trap and disarm it before we move up. Later the DM tells us that the cages contained about 2 dozen cockatrice, and the trap would have opened the cages, disabled the elevator, locked the door, and made a loud sound around us. It would have been a tough fight, with probably about half of us becoming petrified, but my paranoia (old school gamer) saved us from it.

I needed to use a single medusa against a party of 7 level 5 PCs, which was a super easy combat according to the DMG. Since this was supposed to be a mini-boss battle, I set her lair up in a labyrinth filled with pit traps and gave her Boots of Striding and Springing. When the party realized they faced a medusa, they averted their eyes. Her strategy was to shoot from a distance over a covered pit, then move down another passage, jumping over its covered pit. If the party followed, they would inevitably fall into the pit trap. Once they figured out to jump/climb past the trap, they'd have to look to see which way she went... causing them to have to save against the petrification again. She only petrified one character, and they found others who had been petrified before. They had a ring with 1 Wish still in it (placed in case of the need for things like this), so they used it to free everyone, making allies for the rest of the adventure.

In a high level adventure, the party had to cross a river of lava via a rock formation. It was uneven and slick, requiring a Dex save at about the half-way point (I allowed Dex/Athletics as a substitute) or you fall about 30 ft to the lava (instant death). Several characters had flight or other options to avoid it, but a few had to. They actually had a plan of having everyone cross one at a time, and one PC would cast featherfall if someone fell, giving the flyer time to catch them and (hopefully) get them across before they hit the lava. Great idea, but no one failed.

 

[iserith]

Before I answer, I have to ask what specifically are considered "save or die" effects in D&D 5e?

Floating this back up - I'm genuinely curious what are considered the "save or die" effects in D&D 5e?

I'm assuming failing a save versus, say, a sacred flame while you're low on hit points doesn't count.

 

[ehenning]

Being turned to stone is a little different because they aren't really dead until the statue is destroyed. Until then they're just in stasis.

It’s all about how you use it to enhance the game, and if your players buy into it can make it a whole new level.

Current campaign recent event: party fights Medusa and wizard is turned to stone while using boots of spider climbing. Petrified body falls 20+ feet and shatters. However, there was a ring of mind shielding in play, and the player asked me in private if he could role to escape into the ring. Then, he got a Nat20.

I used this to move the story along, and the player took it to the next level. Party made a quest to reconstitute and raise his dead body while he communicated to one of the party through the ring. It gave everyone a new sense of purpose and was quite different to the typical “go kill a monster and destroy a cult” -type of adventuring.

If your goal is to create a shared story (my group’s agreed goal in playing) then it’s about taking all events and using them to move the story forward. In this, even death (irrevocable death) can do this when everyone is in agreement

 

[Luz]

Floating this back up - I'm genuinely curious what are considered the "save or die" effects in D&D 5e?

I'm assuming failing a save versus, say, a sacred flame while you're low on hit points doesn't count.

Good point. AFAIK, there aren't (technically) any save or die effects in the 5e core rules. The closest things are attacks that bring a character's hit points to zero (a banshee's wail, a bodak's gaze, a demilich's howl, etc.) Similar forms of attack like a wraith's life drain ability might also be considered a save or die effect, as well as spells like disintigrate and finger of death.

Maybe some of the adventure books? I've heard ToA has a few, but I haven't read enough of it to validate this.

I can only assume that the various "save or suck" effects that are oft criticized would be things that don't outright kill but incapacitate a character instead, like a symbol of stunning/hopelessness/pain or a medusa's gaze. In that regard, they may as well be grouped with the various "save or die" effects I already mentioned.

I assumed the OP referred to more of a preferred style of play, such as running an old AD&D module with 5e rules but preserving the save or die effects used in some of them. I've done this on occasion and don't have any issues. Again, it comes down to the DM being able to forecast these before hitting the PCs with them.

 

[Bawylie]

Save or “Dying” comes up frequently at my table (any time you take damage in excess of your constitution score).

 

[AgnostiCleric]

So I use them myself when my player that does something really stupid or ultra-dangerous. However, due to the nature of my campaign, they'll have to roll a new character, albeit at the same level.