Whedon off Wonder Woman

[Ranger REG]

I didn't even use the word sucked. I just stated that this was a good thing if you want to make a good movie. I should have added that I didn't want to sit through 2 hours of his forced dialog but didn't think the thread was about ripping on his writing. That's all, but I should have remembered the devotion of the Wheadon lovers. My mistake.

Not a fan of Serenity, huh?

 

[Grog]

(Shrug) People hate. It is what we do. It is who we are. Like breathing.

I don't hate Joss, but I do think he's way overrated and overhyped. More and more I'm convinced that Greenwalt was the true talent behind Buffy and Angel.

 

[John Crichton]

I don't hate Joss, but I do think he's way overrated and overhyped. More and more I'm convinced that Greenwalt was the true talent behind Buffy and Angel.

I'm sure he contributed to those show's successes but then how to explain Firefly? And beyond that, if you look at the extras on the DVDs for those shows you can see Joss' fingerprints all over them.

 

[Grog]

I'm sure he contributed to those show's successes but then how to explain Firefly?

Firefly wasn't a success.

And I could talk in-depth about Buffy and Angel, but that would be way off-topic for this thread, so I'll refrain.

 

[John Crichton]

Firefly wasn't a success.

Compared to Buffy & Angel? What criteria?

Because if you are talking about viewership, because it was on Fox more people watched it that those who watched Buffy or Angel. If you are talking about quality, you can certainly say it wasn't as good but there will be plenty of folks who will disagree with you.

 

[trancejeremy]

Well, actually, thanks to this helpful page which has the ratings for the entire run of Angel, Buffy, and Firefly we can compare:

http://home.insightbb.com/~wahoskem/firefly1.html

Firefly's best national rating was the premiere, at 4.0, the next two episodes were in the 3.x range, then the rest were in the 2s. Buffy didn't do much better (and in some cases about the same) but it did generally do better, especially the 3rd season when it seems to have peaked. I think Angel even did better than Buffy for a while.

OTOH, the network did matter. Buffy was among the top shows on WB, while Firefly was pretty much the worst on Fox. That sites also has a list of how the show did to others on the network. Firefly's best showing was the 3rd worst on the schedule. Most of the time it was worst. Which is pretty telling, too, because Fox runs re-runs of Cops on Saturday. In fact, saturday is basically a throw away for Fox, they run shows that have terrible ratings, but are very cheap to make (COPS and America's Most Wanted), and Firefly apparently even couldn't outperform those most of the time.

Firefly definitely can be considered a failure.

 

[Grog]

Compared to Buffy & Angel? What criteria?

It was canceled after half a season. By definition, it's a failure.

As for quality, that's totally subjective. In my opinion, Firefly was good - but that's all. Not great, and there was nothing particularly special about it. The writing and acting were above par, and the stories were good once they got the initial intros done (it had one of the worst series openers I can ever remember seeing).

Character-wise, they got one thing right - Captain Malcolm Reynolds. Everyone else was severely lacking in depth. The doctor's sister, for instance, only became a remotely interesting character in the last episode that aired - and since a disproportionate amount of the plot revolved around her....

 

[Vigilance]

Hmm, see I thought it was a big deal back then, too. The movie was in production hell for years and when it was finally announced the fan base (which is huge) went nuts and ate up every design, photo and trailer. Remember the debate over the Green Goblin helmet?

Sure WE thought it was a big deal.

Comics fans. Geeks. Us.

Do you think the studio thought Spider Man would be a 500 million dollar film?

I seriously doubt it.

 

[Klaus]

It was canceled after half a season. By definition, it's a failure.

As for quality, that's totally subjective. In my opinion, Firefly was good - but that's all. Not great, and there was nothing particularly special about it. The writing and acting were above par, and the stories were good once they got the initial intros done (it had one of the worst series openers I can ever remember seeing).

Character-wise, they got one thing right - Captain Malcolm Reynolds. Everyone else was severely lacking in depth. The doctor's sister, for instance, only became a remotely interesting character in the last episode that aired - and since a disproportionate amount of the plot revolved around her....

There is the fact that the show was aired out of order, and the last episodes weren't even aired. Compare Firefly to the first 13 episodes of Buffy and you'll see that, technically, it was superior.

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

In a likely futal attempt to get this thread back on topic. Given that Whedon has left, WB has grabbed the rights to the WW II script, Joel Silver is still involved and everyone hates everyone and secretly wishes them ill...

What do you anticipate for the Wonder Woman flick? Me, I'm betting on a return to development hell.