Which feats are "taxes"?

[Garthanos]

there are a number of feats that I consider borderline feat tax. You don't have to take them in order to be effective, but they're good enough that it's hard to justify not doing it:

Expertise (before 15th level)
Paragon Defenses (all paragon characters)
Action Surge (all humans and half-elves)
Backstabber (rogues)
Lethal Hunter (rangers)
Nimble Blade (rogues)
Weapon Proficiency (all weapon-users who can get a damage die upgrade by taking a superior weapon)
Leather Armor Proficiency (all characters who don't have it already)

I think you are meandering into well just good stuff.. the leather armor annoys me because it is too often against form for the ones its most useful for... I want the shieldmages warding to be be more available.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

i actually disagree on paragon defenses and robust defenses, because both have feats which compete with them (+2 fort,ref,will at paragon and +2 fort,ref,will +2 to certain saving throws at epic level.)

I more or less agree with the rest.

 

[keterys]

The epic +4 FRW feats stack with paragon and robust defenses. Iron Will, etc don't, it's true, but...

 

[Cadfan]

Some of us suspect that's a typo.

 

[Nikosandros]

Some of us suspect that's a typo.

Or at least hope so...

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The epic +4 FRW feats stack with paragon and robust defenses. Iron Will, etc don't, it's true, but...

yeah, but i did not speak of the +4 fort,ref or will boosters but the combined defense and saving throw boosters... as you can read in the post above...

 

[keterys]

yeah, but i did not speak of the +4 fort,ref or will boosters but the combined defense and saving throw boosters... as you can read in the post above...

At the end of the day I guess I'm just not really clear on your objection. He said that the +2 to all FRWs seemed excessive and therefore a required feat. You countered that it didn't stack with some other feats.

The counter to 'This is a required feat' with 'You might instead feel this other feat is required' is a bit odd. It's got a lot more meat than saying Weapon Expertise is fine because you could instead take Focused Expertise, though.

Either way, changing the amount you can increase FRWs from +2 to +6 in one product, the same one that increases hit by +3, makes it feel very similar.

 

[jsaving]

Taxes? This does not compute.

What's meant here is not "taxes" in the sense that characters are formally required to take them, but rather feats that one must take to remain viable. Remember that the 4e team has spoken on many occasions about must-take feats being a sign of bad design, and they're right -- which is why no one should be pleased that we're seeing them in growing numbers.

 

[Dausuul]

I think you are meandering into well just good stuff.. the leather armor annoys me because it is too often against form for the ones its most useful for... I want the shieldmages warding to be be more available.

That's why I said "borderline," distinguishing them from the "definitive feat taxes" of high-level Expertise and Robust Defenses. These feats are ones that aren't absolutely critical to make a character work, but... well... maybe I'm just an optimization-monkey, but like I said, I would never make a character without taking the feats I listed. When was the last time you saw a rogue who didn't take Backstabber at the first available opportunity?

 

[Garthanos]

That's why I said "borderline," distinguishing them from the "definitive feat taxes" of high-level Expertise and Robust Defenses. These feats are ones that aren't absolutely critical to make a character work, but... well... maybe I'm just an optimization-monkey, but like I said, I would never make a character without taking the feats I listed. When was the last time you saw a rogue who didn't take Backstabber at the first available opportunity?

Designing Frodo Baggins ;-), non deadly character concept.