Why I dislike Milestone XP

[JonnyP71]

A DM who only awards XP for killing monsters is not a good DM, period. DMing like that encourages murderhobo behaviour.

 

[iserith]

A DM who only awards XP for killing monsters is not a good DM, period.

I disagree. What if I wanted to have a blood-soaked game of pure carnage set on the Iron-Shod Battle Plane of Acheron where spilling guts and ascending the ranks by the number of ears you collect is the order of the day? Where armies clashed eternally and the living envy the dead? Why does that make me "not a good DM, period" instead of a DM with a very focused campaign who rewards the players for playing to that theme? I'd play in that game. It sounds fun as hell to me.

DMing like that encourages murderhobo behaviour.

What if that's the outcome the DM wants to encourage? What if that's the game the players bought into?

That may not be the game for you, but I don't think you can fairly say the DM is no good.

 

[cbwjm]

When i was DMing we used party XP. Since everyone has the same XP requirements to level there wasn't a need to track it separately. Rather than individual XP awards, I'd use inspiration for rewarding individual player actions.

I like this better than milestone levelling and it doesn't require players tracking individual experience. New players come in at the same XP total as the others. I'd also use story rewards of 5% of the total XP needed to reach the next level which gets added to the party total at the end of the session.

 

[Oofta]

Let's be clear here: I have no criticism of your criticism that the particular game you were playing did not give XP for "seeking alliance and attempting to find out more about what was going on to try to minimize casualties of innocent people." Maybe it should have. But it didn't, apparently.

My criticism of your statement is that you see a lack of reward as a penalty when you presumably knew what you needed to do to get the reward. That's a weak argument worth abandoning in my view.

IMHO, lack of reward is a penalty. There is a tradition (right or wrong, not universally) in D&D of rewarding only violent solutions to problems. That's why I prefer ignoring XP and advancing based on story and overall achievements.

It has nothing to do with my not accepting responsibility, not wanting my PC to face risks or any of the other BS. I simply think my PC should be rewarded for doing what they would do, even if sometimes being a hero means not killing everything that moves.

 

[iserith]

IMHO, lack of reward is a penalty. There is a tradition (right or wrong, not universally) in D&D of rewarding only violent solutions to problems. That's why I prefer ignoring XP and advancing based on story and overall achievements.

It has nothing to do with my not accepting responsibility, not wanting my PC to face risks or any of the other BS. I simply think my PC should be rewarded for doing what they would do, even if sometimes being a hero means not killing everything that moves.

Yeah, that's fine. As I've said several times now, I think it's fair that you would like the game to reward you for non-violent approaches to problems and to choose to do that in your own games. I do that in my own game, depending on what I'm going for. But that's not the game you were playing, right? In my opinion, if your goal was to gain a level, then the smart play was to do the things that allow you to level. Not doing those things and then complaining about being penalized is, to me, pretty weak provided you were aware of what you needed to do.

Maybe instead of going to work tomorrow and being rewarded for doing so with a paycheck, I will sit home, get no paycheck, then loudly proclaim that I've been penalized.

 

[taelisin]

In my opinion, if the players don't feel sense of accomplishment, from either their own self directed goals, progession in the narrative, or a mix of both, then it isn't a very successful game, however you provide levels or xp. Levels and XP can't provide this accomplishment on their own however you shake it, at best they are a secondary incentive; icing on the cake if you will.

XP likewise can't make combat meaningful. There needs to be in world logical consistency and motivation for the conflict to acheive this. This can, and should, be extrapolated to all conflict, not just potential combat.

If you are not providing this sense of accomplishment, then XP is simply a dissassociated game mechanic. If you are, at best it should be a (distant) secondary consideration, at worst meaningless.

 

[Oofta]

Yeah, that's fine. As I've said several times now, I think it's fair that you would like the game to reward you for non-violent approaches to problems and to choose to do that in your own games. I do that in my own game, depending on what I'm going for. But that's not the game you were playing, right? In my opinion, if your goal was to gain a level, then the smart play was to do the things that allow you to level. Not doing those things and then complaining about being penalized is, to me, pretty weak provided you were aware of what you needed to do.

Maybe instead of going to work tomorrow and being rewarded for doing so with a paycheck, I will sit home, get no paycheck, then loudly proclaim that I've been penalized.

We're just talking past each other. I knew what I needed to do to get XP. My point is that I don't like the default assumption that you only get XP for killing.

I don't blame my DM, he was just following the rules.

And it's more akin to going to work, putting in a full day and not getting paid because there was a storm and no customers showed up so you prevented damage to the store while doing maintenance that was overdue, necessary, and part of your job.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

We're just talking past each other. I knew what I needed to do to get XP. My point is that I don't like the default assumption that you only get XP for killing.

I don't blame my DM, he was just following the rules.

I'm not convinced that giving XP just for killing monsters is "following the rules". How do you explain all the WoTC adventures that encourage milestone leveling?

We're coming at it from several different angles, but I think it's safe to say that most DMs here would agree that awarding XP just for killing enemies - and only for killing enemies - would not be our chosen way to run a campaign.

 

[iserith]

We're just talking past each other. I knew what I needed to do to get XP. My point is that I don't like the default assumption that you only get XP for killing.

I don't blame my DM, he was just following the rules.

Is it a default assumption though? I'm not sure about AL-specific rules, but the DMG leaves the question open and provides guidance on giving XP for things other than combat, plus systems for not using XP at all.

 

[iserith]

We're coming at it from several different angles, but I think it's safe to say that most DMs here would agree that awarding XP just for killing enemies - and only for killing enemies - would not be our chosen way to run a campaign.

Depends on the theme of the campaign, I would say.