Would you allow this paladin in your game? (new fiction added 11/11/08)

[Treebore]

Going to prostitutes is not illegal everywhere. There are states/cities in the US where it is legal. There are whole nations around the world where it is legal. Drinking alcohol is not illegal, drinking to excess and brawling or committing other crimes as a result of your drunken state are illegal.

So what laws do Paladins in a given campaign follow? What exactly are those laws? This is why a well written Paladin code is needed for any given campaign.

I would gladly allow such a paladin in my game, assuming my kids aren't playing in it. Even then, I would if you agreed not to swear or get explicit about the sexual activities. Plus the code of your Paladin/Church would have to allow your behaviour.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

No. For several reasons.

First, I don't buy the idea that these "little sins" that are rapidly becoming not only socially accepted but even passe are insignificant. Nor do I buy the idea that these are victimless crimes. Write the story a little differently where instead of clean-scrubbed sluts who do it for fun (like the porn sites would have you believe), the prostitutes are abused, exploited, and trapped in a cycle of dependency if not actually enslaved. Then, when you write about Sir Cedric leaving the room and the guard checking the lock on the door so that the girl won't try to escape or the madame taking the money that they need to buy that cure disease (Sir Cedric doesn't need to worry about that, of course, but they do) so that they have to choose between curing themselves and feeding their children, and I'm betting a lot of the "yes" votes switch to no.

"But Sir Cedric only frequents the happy brothels pictured in porn flicks and his prostitutes are straight out of Pretty Woman." He has money to pay for the ones who are always pretty (and young) and never diseased and whose life is made fairly good by that money. (Or what they see of it). And what of the young knight Magnus or his squire Erik? Observing that it is acceptable for the great Sir Cedric, will they, who lack his money and discernment, stick to the Hollywood brothels or will they buy what they can afford and take the cheap and sleazy turn into the Thailand style sex slavery. A paladin is supposed to set an example. He is responsible, not only for the direct, but for some of the predictable indirect consequences of his actions.

In some ways, his drinking is even worse. If Sir Cedric is really into the hedonistic aspect of drinking, there's no question about it: sooner or later, he's going to get falling down drunk and puke his guts out in the alley, and sooner or later, he's going to get into a drunken brawl.

The second reason which is equally important is that Sir Cedric has the wrong attitude.

He obviously thinks that he's better than everyone else and that the sacrifices he makes put him above the rules for ordinary people. "I think you might agree that I've earned it. And if you don't, well then you can just go **** yourself," is the speech of a fighter (or even a blackguard) and not a paladin. The whole concept of a paladin is that they exemplify the virtues--not that they get a free pass for their vices because they fight to protect people.

Furthermore, Sir Cedric, as depicted here, has the wrong perspective on his role. His attitude might be summed up with "if it feels good, do it because, if I'm lucky, I'm going to die tomorrow." If he's a character in Aliens, he's Hudson. He's given up on fighting the little evil because it's pointless, starting with the little evils inside of him. If he's entitled to get falling down drunk, sleep around, patronize prostitutes, and angrily cuss out the squire sent to find him, then one might also presume that, regardless of the moral status of his sluttiness and drinking, he also believes himself entitled to take out his anger on the little people. After all, we just watched him do it.

Third, if we start with the virtue count, this Sir Cedric, as depicted doesn't have enough.
Classical virtues: Justice (maybe--though his sense of entitlement mitigates against this), temperence (definitely not), courage (to some degree--we can presume physical courage, but his attitude towards life seems to spring from the opposite).
Christian virtues: Faith (maybe--but he doesn't seem to have confidence in ultimate victory), Hope (not a bit of it), Love (he's got the formula down--giving his body to be burned, so to speak, but he seems to think he's entitled to treat other people any d$%* way he feels like), Humility (definitely not--he thinks his sacrifices make him better than everyone else and entitle him to operate as if he were above their petty restrictions).
Sir Cedric can only function as a paragon of virtue if you're willing to pare the virtues down to risking your life for others on the field of battle... and being good at it. But if that's the criterion for being a paladin, then the are very few warrior types that wouldn't make the cut.

All told, an interesting character. But not a paladin of any kind.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

Basalisk said it better than I ever could. I agree with him wholeheartedly.

 

[Darkness]

Let's watch our language a little, everyone. Even small things count, you know. (E.g., words like "sluts" aren't a good start if you want to keep grannie happy.)
It would be a waste if I saw well-thought-out posts that I had to delete because they violate EN World rules. So let's not go there. Thanks.

If anyone has comments or questions, e-mail me.

Write the story a little differently where instead of clean-scrubbed ... who do it for fun ... the prostitutes are abused, exploited, and trapped in a cycle of dependency if not actually enslaved.

Right, how prostitution works is a campaign question and thus, up to the DM. If the local prostitutes are enslaved and abused, Cedric couldn't, in good conscience, act as in his fiction. This might or might not be the case, though.

In some ways, his drinking is even worse.

Right, it depends on how much he drinks, how often and how much he can take.
Reminds me... Are there drinking rules in D&D? If they're based on Fortitude saves, drinking a paladin under the table would be almost impossible, what with his good Fortitude save, likely high Con and divine grace Cha bonus to saves.

Third, if we start with the virtue count, this Sir Cedric, as depicted doesn't have enough.

Agreed, but the paladin code of conduct, by the RAW, is quite specfic in its requirements (beyond the necessity to stay LG) and that's all he has to live up to.

Sir Cedric can only function as a paragon of virtue if you're willing to pare the virtues down to risking your life for others on the field of battle... and being good at it. But if that's the criterion for being a paladin, then the are very few warrior types that wouldn't make the cut.

Warrior types or LG warrior types?

 

[CrusaderX]

The character could make for an interesting Fighter/Cleric.

He makes for a poor Paladin though.

And while I love to play non-stereotypical and somewhat roguish Paladins in personality, they shouldn't be overly roguish in deeds, IMO. Paladins are all about being paragons of virtue, and this guy ain't it.

 

[Wild Gazebo]

I enjoyed this. I feel people should be a bit more willing to adopt the mindset of an individual who has never had any legislated rights, has lived during a time when slavery, prostitution, public execution, mass starvation, and plagues were common place.

The only problem I had with the charcter was his dismissal of his motive. If this was just a flipant statement to an individual he doesn't care about, that is one thing, but if he truely is a defeatest I feel it falls short of a paladin's devotion.

It would have been better if he had a child slave to carry he effects and run errands.

Yep, I voted yes.

 

[DonaldRumsfeldsTofu]

I would allow it in an instant, merely because with the possible exception of the monk, the Paladin seems to be the only character class that railroads the player into playing not only a very specific personality archetype, but what is essentially the same basic character over and over. I have never in my life seen a unique Paladin before reading this post, thus I am very impressed.

Nor do I buy the idea that these are victimless crimes. Write the story a little differently where instead of clean-scrubbed sluts who do it for fun (like the porn sites would have you believe), the prostitutes are abused, exploited, and trapped in a cycle of dependency if not actually enslaved. Then, when you write about Sir Cedric leaving the room and the guard checking the lock on the door so that the girl won't try to escape or the madame taking the money that they need to buy that cure disease (Sir Cedric doesn't need to worry about that, of course, but they do) so that they have to choose between curing themselves and feeding their children, and I'm betting a lot of the "yes" votes switch to no.

Assumably if he ever visited a house of prostitution like that, he not only would make not make his patronage there, but would do his best to dismantle it, same as if he visited a store where the workers were "abused, exploited, and trapped in a cycle of dependency if not actually enslaved" *coughWal-Martcough* or anywhere where the workers are "abused, exploited , and trapped in a cycle of dependency, if not actually enslaved", not because their trade involves sexual intercourse, but because they're being abused, exploited, and trapped in a circle of dependency if not actually enslaved. (Which is often a very common byproduct of the wage system that really has nothing to do with the trade you're in. But I'm starting to boarder on getting into politics) But that's not what the piece of fiction said. It said it was a nice brothel with happy prostitutes and a happy madam. Therefore, he committed no violation of his good alignment.

 

[shilsen]

"I am born to die a futile death fighting against evil that will never be defeated. Thus, I can kick back with a brew and a babe now and then."

The fiction is well written, though.

Thanks. I thought it was very pedestrian, actually

Oh, and this is probably the most interesting paladin archetype I've seen in a long while. Good stuff.

Thanks again.

On the whole, I was just trying to do two things here - put together (a) a cynical paladin, and (b) a paladin who pushes the boundaries of the PHB paladin without actually breaking them in any way. I thought Sir Cedric fits that billing. Obviously, many here will disagree. But, on the whole, I have to say I'm impressed with how many "yes" answers I got for the poll.

I'm not going to respond to everybody posting here, but I figured I should address the question of the cynical/defeatist paladin. I agree that the paladin should be an inspiring figure. Personally speaking, I figure someone who fights the good fight even though he fully expects to eventually lose, simply because it is the right thing to do, is a really inspiring figure. Maybe that's just me.

Oh yes - one more thing which starting this thread just re-emphasized for me: starting a paladin thread here is like throwing chum off a fishing boat in shark-infested waters

 

[Ryltar]

I would definitely allow it, because it finally is a paladin archetype with a twist, one that does not just play out the same stereotypes over and over again. A caveat would go with that, however: His attitude as described in the flavor text seems a little *too* flippant and 'unholier-than-thou' . It seems to me all he wants to do in that little talk is tell the other paladin how superior his own interpretation of being a holy warrior is in comparison. But if you 'nerfed' that attitude a little bit, I'd be fine with him.

 

[Wild Gazebo]

I re-read your fiction blurb. And I have to agree with you, the defeatest attitude works. I was at fist worried that he doesn't beleive in his cause but I don't think that is the case. Good work.