Would you allow this paladin in your game? (new fiction added 11/11/08)

[Brother MacLaren]

On the cynicism, think of Angel at the end of that series. Angel never had any hope of a lasting victory over the powers behind Wolfram & Hart, but even without hope he still fought the good fight because it was the right thing to do. And, at the end of the last episode, the implication is that they all go down fighting. Angel tells his comrades this, not to discourage them, but to give them the honest truth and the opportunity to back out - keeping them on board through ingorance would have been the worse crime.

What is a paladin to do in such a world? In Midnight, there is no true chance of lasting victory, but only the hope of holding back the Shadow for another day. Would not a paladin in such a world have this kind of an outlook? Would it not be heroic to keep fighting for good nonetheless?

I also like Wild Gazebo's point - game worlds aren't our modern world. This paladin would be great in a game world that has some of the primitive, brutish, and nasty aspects of the Dark Ages or Medieval era, where "Neutral" for a soldier means "Just pillaging, no raping." He wouldn't fit in a cleaner and more pleasant setting with modern ethics. Either type can be fun to play in.

 

[fusangite]

Somehow, I'm not allowed to vote in this poll. I wonder if it's a problem with my browser or that community supporters get to disqualify annoying people's responses to their polls.

Anyway, of course I wouldn't allow this paladin in my campaign; my campaigns tend to be medieval rather than early modern in character so I go for a kind of intolerant violent prudishness when it comes to behavioural codes. That stated, most of the arguments against having this sort of paladin are absolutely ridiculous.

To me, people who do good things despite fully comprehending their futility, who fight the good fight as skeptics rather than zealots are the most heroic characters. Think of the Norse gods who know how it's all going to end. Think of Aragorn leading that army to what he thought to be certain defeat. That's what heroism is all about for me.

Also, the idea that being virtuous entails adopting the morality of a 19th century American Protestant is just hogwash. There is nothing inherently unlawful or ungood about patronizing prostitutes and drinking alcohol; goodness and evilness only attach to those actions from social context. For goodness sake, God commands Christians to drink alcohol -- in remembrance of Him!

Finally, the idea that one's internal thoughts can violate a paladin's code presupposes the kind of intention-based morality that Christ introduced in the Sermon on the Mount. Most codes are not about one's internal state; they are about one's actions. I would never write a paladin's code that tried to regulate the character's internal thoughts anyway because character thoughts fall in an uncomfortable liminal region between player and character.

The real problem with the paladin depicted here is that he doesn't fit with the cultural archetype upon which the class is based. shilsen, while you have convinced me that one can have a non-celibate paladin, the one you have depicted here is still beyond the pale. He does not resonate with chivalric characters, even those in the Faerie Queen.

Finally, can I just say "ick"? Why this lavish description of a sexually charged situation in a D&D game?

 

[Andre]

The character could make for an interesting Fighter/Cleric.

He makes for a poor Paladin though.

This was my first reaction and I'm not sure any of the posts have changed it.

The character reads like someone from Whedon's Buffy or Angel series, where the heroes were heroic, but flawed. They made bad choices, they did things for the wrong reasons, they were never paragons of virtue, but they fought the good fight. To me, this makes for a very interesting, realistic character, but not a very good paladin. All just IMO, of course. If it works for your GM, go for it.

 

[Doctor Shaft]

I wouldn't allow it personally, without talking to the player and informing him that he will be facing some serious in-game difficulties as the campaign progresses. I'd tell him not to be surprised if his deity decides to pull a quick-one on him at some point or two. Like a moment where his powers simply fade momentarily, or if while he prays after having his glorious love-fest with two women, that he doesn't really get the same feeling as he used to from it.

I think Basillisk put it best. Your character is basically out-of-control in terms of his sex drive (two ladies at once?) and frequents taverns. While I certainly enjoy hero types that break the mold, this particularly one is really shattering that mold to pieces.

Is it a "cool" character? I suppose it is. While I can't admire his flippant desires to frequent a brothel, he is a flawed character with a reluctant heroic attitude. A lot of people suggested using the chaotic good paladin variants, and in this case I would do the same. We could argue to pieces whether the government law supports prostitution, et al, but for a paladin, I think the lawful part really pertains more towards what his deity's laws are, not the town's. If the town supports prostitution, but his deity does not, then his government doesn't mean squat in that instance.

So, Sir Cedric, in order to be a LG paladin, at least if it were my campaign, would have to try extra hard to find a LG deity that actually supported his actions. Otherwise, a paladin's main source of power comes directly from his deity. He represents that deity's cause. A paladin can sure have flaws, but if they are so glaring and lacking in discipline, one has to question if any deity in its right mind would be okay with Sir Cedric. There has to be a quality to him that has redeeming value - i.e. at some point that character is going to have to face his behaviors and become conscious of them and attempt to overcome them. Sir Cedric doesn't seem redemptive at all in that fiction blurb, though. Essentially, he came downstairs from his fantastic squeaky-clean brothel and said "Catch ya later dude. See ya next week. I think in a couple days I'll work my way up to four girls at once. Awesome."

So, in summary, I guess I would let the character in, barring maturity issues and such. But the player would have to be prepared to suffer the consequences for such defeatist attitude and loose discipline. I'd let him use his powers off and on, occasionally sapping away his smite powers and courage auras when a serious occasion arises. Not to 'punish' the player, but to represent the fact that Cedric is hardly the example of "Paladin."

Otherwise, like Basillisk said. A lot of warriors could qualify for paladins.

 

[Turanil]

Elder Basilisk said it better than I ever could. I agree with him wholeheartedly.

I must second this. All of this assumption that the paladin going to the brothel is okay, is because the depicted brothel is a clean place where the women do a job like any other. But as said Elder Basilisk the truth is that prostitution has never been a choice / activity that was good for the women who performed it (with maybe the sole exception of courtesans who make it for extremely high prices, and even there not sure its the best of activity...). In a realistic setting, brothels are bad places where girls are almost enslaved. When I read about priestesses = sacred prostitutes, let me tell this: there is one country on this planet where there is so-called sacred prostitutes. It's in India, and the girls are clearly slaves living a terrible life. (I did read an article about this 20 years ago in a magazine; things may have changed now, plus it was probably not widespread and not necessary legal)

I would gladly allow such a paladin in my game, assuming my kids aren't playing in it.

Several persons have posted something along this line (i.e.: okay but not if kids are there). Hey, no offense intended, but I always find a little dubious when people say "Oh! no sex described in our DnD game" (which is perfectly normal and understandable but) while our descriptions of gaming murder, slaying, maiming, burning people (firebals), etc. doesn't need to be called into question. Just my two cents remark of course.

 

[fusangite]

But as said Elder Basilisk the truth is that prostitution has never been a choice / activity that was good for the women who performed it

In the pre-modern world, very few people's jobs were a matter of choice. Have the peasants in your campaign freely decided to be peasants? Probably not. For them, it's probably till the land or starve. Should the paladin not purchase their barley because they are oppressed? How about metal, any idea what working conditions were like for pre-modern miners? Most miners were convict labourers or other types of slaves with abysmal life expectancy and a quality of life that made the poor life expectancy as positive upside of the job. Should the paladin not purchase metal weapons and armour? The idea that the paladin should not purchase things tainted by conscript labour and oppression would effectively transform him into a hermit clad in skins in many fantasy worlds.

Second, in what universe is this vast generalization about prostitutes true? Most women who became prostitutes in the past chose to do so because, given their personal tolerances, talents and tastes, prostitution was the best available option. Certainly there were female prisoners sold into slavery but there were a lot of other ways women got into the job. For a woman escaping an arranged marriage, the idea of having carnal relations with someone she found unattractive and potentially despicable was probably one she was already very used to. For other women, the rewards of urban over country life, a higher income, fewer hours of work and greater personal freedom might have prostitution seem tolerable in comparison to back-breaking marginal hoe agriculture in the mountains of Greece. Certainly it is true that the majority of women in arranged marriages and daily agricultural toil found that type of suffering and disrespect preferable to the types associated with prostitution but this experience was not universal.

Perhaps you might do well to look at the wide variety of experiences and motives for modern sex trade workers. Not all are there to pay for drugs. Many are but many credibly articulate reasons why, to this day, women choose to work in this field.

Third, there are, of course, the honoured prostitutes. In the Roman world, in some cults, working as a temple prostitute was something that brought respect, power and ecclesiastical rank, and in some cases, carnal pleasure. Then we have the esteemed order of the Geisha in Japan; really, just the simple invocation of the term "geisha" should shut this debate down.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

I would allow him IMC, but with the caveat that he would lose his powers for such behavior (perhaps to be replaced by a demon in order to lead him further into debauchery) and would be hunted by the Church if it were cognizant of his actions.

 

[Doctor Shaft]

Yes, but if we're to beg the question of whether the paladin will till the land or not based on maintaining a local towns economy... then does the paladin even belong there in the first place?

Many mythological stories place the chosen hero either in places where good still resides... or a place where the hero can redeem said town. One has to ask if a dispicable mining/brothel town would ever be blessed with heralded heroes from their deities. And if they are so blessed... what's the paladin still doing there?

Also, once again, paladin's follow their deity's laws... not their government's. While it is certainly appropriate to roleplay a paladin who struggles with deity and human law, and "lesser of two evils," it is not the paladin's fault if his good actions actually harm his town. He follows the law of the deity... not the town. If towns are destroyed because of "correct" or "good" actions... take it up with the deity, not the paladin. And even in that case, a "paladin" would still find virtue in such a thing happening. His deity's way or the highway, so to speak.

We can debate the virtues and cons of prostitution endlessly, but it still all comes down to the standards and demeanor of the deity, and not the human beings and their culture. If the paladin serves a deity that would see no valor or virtue in drinking and prostitution, or would never take up such acts him or herself... then it's expected that the paladin follow the same, unless of course stipulated otherwise.

I feel Sir Cedric makes an interesting character, but if he were to maintain his LG paladin status, and not adopt some kind of chaotic paladin class, that his character still pushes the envelope a little too much. Too little deity following quality, IMO.

 

[Dyne]

One of the big things about the Paladin class is its alignment requirement and its Code of Conduct requirement. The Paladin class has such restrictions on it because, otherwise, it would be a much more powerful class. The game designers decided to give the class wonderful powers but strict restrictions to balance it out.

In other words, before I even got through the post, I decided on a resounding NO. To do otherwise would make the class too easy, in my opinion. Also, neither would I even allow such a scene in any of my games, but that's just me.

If anyone wants to allow such a "Paladin" in their games, then it's fine if they want to play that way. But, it cheapens the class, in my opinion.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Feeling a familiar stirring, he shook his head and muttered, "Down boy!" to himself, before carefully rising from the bed so as not to awake the others.

I can understand giving it a nickname, but making it your familiar? Sheesh.

"...I am a dead man walking. Some day, however good and pious and wonderful I may be, some day I will encounter an evil that is stronger, better organized or simply luckier than me. Whether tomorrow or years from now, whether it comes beneath a mighty dragon's claws or at the tip of a stupid goblin's spear, I will die violently, and in all likelihood, screaming in agony. Maybe I'll be luck[y]...and run into something that will kill me on the spot. But I will run into it some day."

My goodness, what a whiner this guy is.

Seems like a convoluted way to get the abilities without acting the part. Toeing the line for kewl powers has always been the lynchpin of the paladin class, because acting lawful good all the time is not easy.

But I've got no problem with the sex and alcohol; it's the cynicism bordering on nihilism that makes him a fallen paladin in my book.