Would you allow this paladin in your game? (new fiction added 11/11/08)

[howandwhy99]

Okay, admittedly I didn't read all the posts. But I did skim most. Actually I wanted to see what all the hubbub was about.

Skipping the initial poster's question I think what is being asked is "What is a paladin to you?" (not just "does this one fit?") It seems pretty obvious there is plenty to talk about in that regard. There are so many opinions here as well as knowledge about the class and its history.

In my view, paladin's are the embodiment of Lawfulness and Goodness (in D&D). Plenty of Gods can have champions, but paladins must always be lawful and good. Leaving that alignment means losing one's powers. Now these can also be lost by ticking off one's patron God, but that is going to vary widely depending on the particular God. For all paladins however, I think LG works as a simple litmus test.

This isn't the case for other LG characters. Nothing is lost to any other class if they stop being LG. Sure some have alignment requirements, but paladins are far more restrictive and are unique to LG. (IMO, LG-only prestige classes are tantamount to being a paladin anyways)

So back to my original statement. Paladins are the embodiment of Lawfulness and Goodness. This means they are some pretty conflicted characters. I don't know everyone's personal experiences, but the law and the good do not always intersect in my opinion. I doubt they would in any sort of realistic fantasy world either. So a paladin, at times, has to determine when to do the lawful act and when to do the good act.

Notice: if they can't do both they are caught in a moral quandry. Does this mean they are "on trial" every time they face a moral division like this? I would think not. There is some amount of wiggle room depending on the patron God. The religion likely has some codes on what to do in certain situations like these to make life easier. But I think being on the leading edge of that moral understanding, a near constant battleground of ethical testing, is what attacts some to play the paladin class.


I think it's also why threads about paladins tend to be so long. The morality. The politics. The religion. All are tied to the class concept.



Oh yeah. Would I allow it? Depends on a lot of factors. But I prefer to say yes when I can. So yes. (but be prepared for the consequences)

 

[Mista Collins]

Worlds worst paladin thread? In my opinion this is the best paladin thread I have seen yet. Very well written fiction the Cedric. I voted "yes" as I can not see any reason why he wouldn't be a paladin. I liked all the writting so much that I am going to use this guy as an NPC. My question is this though (didn't read all the posts). What is his CHA? By the sounds of it he isn't very attractive and seems to be a very rude person (at least to some people). But he does have a "force of personaility".

I would like to see a book written solely based on this character. I think the first time I play a paladin character, I will see if my DM will allow this.

...you are a perfect example of someone who likes thinking outside the box when it comes to character creation, and I admire that! Wish I was in the Philly area and could drop by one of your games.

Keep the updates coming. BTW, I voted yes.

 

[shilsen]

Worlds worst paladin thread? In my opinion this is the best paladin thread I have seen yet.

Thanks. If size does matter ...

Very well written fiction the Cedric. I voted "yes" as I can not see any reason why he wouldn't be a paladin. I liked all the writting so much that I am going to use this guy as an NPC. My question is this though (didn't read all the posts). What is his CHA? By the sounds of it he isn't very attractive and seems to be a very rude person (at least to some people). But he does have a "force of personaility".

Since this is a concept rather than a PC/NPC I've actually run, I haven't made any mechanical decisions. If I had to make a judgement call, I'd either (depending on the DM's preferences) give him a decent Cha and put only a couple of ranks in Diplomacy, or have a decent Cha and a good Diplomacy score, but not have him actually use Diplomacy as a skill unless he wanted to. I conceptualized him more as someone who chooses to ignore social niceties than as someone incapable of using them.

One of my players has been telling me that I should bring Cedric in as an NPC, esp. since it should lead to some interesting interactions with his PC, who's a far more conventional paladin. If I do introduce Cedric, I'll take the second of the two routes I mentioned above. And if you do use Cedric as an NPC, I'd be interested to hear how it went and how the players/PCs reacted to him.

 

[Furby076]

One of my players has been telling me that I should bring Cedric in as an NPC, esp. since it should lead to some interesting interactions with his PC, who's a far more conventional paladin. If I do introduce Cedric, I'll take the second of the two routes I mentioned above. And if you do use Cedric as an NPC, I'd be interested to hear how it went and how the players/PCs reacted to him.

I definitly think Cedric would have a high charisma (at least 14). From the writings, I didn't take a hint that he is unattractive, and we all know (or at least should) that Charisma is just not all looks. Probably one of the best things in Skills and Powers from second edition was the breakdown of each skill into two sets. As such, I could swing either way with Cedric (he could be ruggedly handsom? A diamond in the rough so to say?).

He definitly has a force of personality, and he has diplomacy ranks. Not all diplomacy has to be about pomp and posture...diplomacy is just a name for a skill to try and convince people to do things your way without either 1) lying to them (bluff) or 2) scare them (intimidate). Though I am sure Cedric has a few ranks in intimidate. Probably a couple of ranks in Perform (comedian) as he likes to make the jokes

Cedric could easily pass for a 32 point build - especially since he is a loner and most loners need that extra "umph" to survive in DnD.

But a war horse? Come on Shil, Dire Lion man - DIRE LION!!!!!

 

[Mista Collins]

Since this is a concept rather than a PC/NPC I've actually run, I haven't made any mechanical decisions.

Well I was under the assumption that you made your concept reality and did create him. But in either case, it is a very well fleshed out character. One I would like to see in any game.

 

[Drunken Master]

I had to vote "No" because paladins are not allowed to do anything fun... unless you classify killing evil guys as "fun", and then they've got that one thing at least.
Also, being a such fatalistic downer would likely irritate his god enough to strip him of paladinhood. I know if I were the deity in question, I'd smite him with cirrhosis at the very least, just for having such a bummer attitude!

However, if we were talking Forgotten Realms here, I'd be inclined to say okay if he was a paladin of Sune, but I really think Tyr, Torm, Ilmater, etc. would frown on Cedric's behavior.

 

[Furby076]

I had to vote "No" because paladins are not allowed to do anything fun... unless you classify killing evil guys as "fun", and then they've got that one thing at least.
Also, being a such fatalistic downer would likely irritate his god enough to strip him of paladinhood. I know if I were the deity in question, I'd smite him with cirrhosis at the very least, just for having such a bummer attitude!

Well you are the party pooper aren't you. Well here is a counter to your "cirrhosis of the liver" idea...It's a disease, so a paladin is immune to all diseases, natural or magical.

But why can't paladins do anything fun? Other then true fatalists, why must a person live in somber misery?

 

[Funeris]

I voted yes. If I ever see characters of such depth in my campaigns, I think I'd s a brick. I prefer the darker, more realistic paladin. That whole 2-dimensional, happy, happy sunshiny persona doesn't work well with me. I hate lawful stupid...and that's what the majority of people that disagree with Cedric seem to be advocating, IMHO.

Realism, realism, realism (of personality). Its the way to go.

 

[Patryn]

Hi all,
Yes.
Haven't quite finished reading the thread so I'm still up to be persuaded but I think that Cedric shows the kind of nobility seen in Sam Vimes in Pratchett's disc-world novels (particularly the early ones and I wouldn't be surprised if old Sam was part of the inspiration for Cedric). Coincidentally the closest thing that they have to a paladin is Carrot who lives with a collection of 'seamstresses'.
Anyway this decision is obviously going to depend a lot on the cosmology that you use. I personally think that Cedric would fit right in to a more planar setting where his type of cynicism is relatively common and well grounded and even shared by a significant number of celestials (It's hard to believe in the ultimate victory of good when the Abyss has an infinite number of layers).

 

[Thunderfoot]

My two cents

Firstly - Bravo, it is very well written, too few people give characters depth now a days.

However, no I would not let this character stand AS IS, with a minor tweek or two, I would be fine. I feel the drinking is fine, but to excess has a problem, it dulls the senses therefore making the imbiber less "fit for duty" - so drinking is ok, drunkeness, not so much.

The prostitution is a chaotic act - wheather or not it is leagal isn't the issue, it is the randomness of the laison (even as a "regular"), it isn't the actual sex I would say no to, just the random "boinking" of whomever. What happens in the event of pregnancy? (I will stop with this thread as it borders to close to religion and politics (especially here in the states)) But the consequences of any action should be weighed and I don't see that here.

As to the cynical view of his mission - right out! Though a realization of his fate is refreshing, the carrying on in the face of danger FOR A PURPOSE at the risk of his own life whould be key - the meat and drink of his existance. The futility and cynasism would be enough for most gods to strip him of power right then and there. (Of course penance would be needed to get them back.)

But the character still works, but not as a Paladin, but as a fallen paladin (not a blackguard) just one who is no longer quite so lofty. Maybe a Paladin X/Fighter X who may not beleive in the fight anymore but does so simply because it's all he's ever known (ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die), which is quite a clever PC background.

I think the character plan is great and if you don't mind, I would like to use this template as an NPC in my campaign for a "fallen" hero the party is destined to run into.