D&D 5E Xanathar's Healing Spirit is 10d6 healing to the whole party out of combat?

[FrogReaver]

Easiest modification:

No other restrictions other than add "until a total of 60 HP has been healed." much like the cap on Guardian of Faith.

That makes it pretty much as good as Prayer of Healing; better in combat, worse out of combat because the average amount healed in a 6 person party is lower and, while the rate of healing would upscale, the total healed would not.

Taking this a step further I eould allow it to cast multiple spirits per spell level but you only ever gain hp from a single spirit on a turn Let's itnincrease in area as well then.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So, the Healing Spirit spell in XGtE is pretty cool, and seems like it could be a balanced spell in combat, creating interesting encouragement to move around. But out of combat, every ally and yourself can just walk a conga line through it, even while traveling at a slow pace, and get 10d6 healing over a minute to everyone in the group.

This doesn't seem intentional. What are your thoughts?

I’m with Mearls on this one. It’s a nice spell, that simply will not break anyone’s game. It breaks expectations a bit, but balance not at all.

It’s fine as is.

In combat, it just works. Out of combat, it gives you a short rest worth of healing at the cost of a spell slot rather than time and HD. Cool. So what?

 

[SubDude]

Not quite with you on this one. What makes heal a great spell is not the after combat healing. Its the in combat, oh god I need health now ability. It gives powerful, and consistent, in combat healing.

That's completely different from an out of combat focused healing spell.

Fair point.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Not quite with you on this one. What makes heal a great spell is not the after combat healing. Its the in combat, oh god I need health now ability. It gives powerful, and consistent, in combat healing.

That's completely different from an out of combat focused healing spell.

Indeed. The ability to take the rogue from zero hit points to near full with a single action, is astoundingly more powerful than healing everyone after a fight with fewer/no HD spent.

I don’t think that healing spirit is going to become a always prepared spell for most characters that can. It’s certainly going to be in consideration every time, but how important it’s out of combat function is will vary from group to group.

 

[5ekyu]

Healing Spirit clearly overshadows Prayer of Healing, and I would say it also overshadows the 6th level spell, HEAL.

Heal does 70 hp to a single creature. Even cast alone without the benefit of Beacon of Hope, Healing Spirit will average 35 points of healing to each creature. Your party has more than two characters in it? Congratulations - you don't need to "waste" that 6th level spell slot you can instead use a second-level spell slot.

With this in mind, Healing Spirit could easily be a 7th level spell.

I would be hesitant to compare these two since one is primarily a strong in combat heal (which can be used out of combat too but its strength is in combat while the other is the opposite.

i would view the original HS spell as approaching level 6th - IE a tier-3 spell because i see tier-3 as the point where the types of abilities gained do shift the gameplay rather dramatically away from the mundane as challenges. But even then, its scaling seems out of whack and needs adjusting.

 

[5ekyu]

Easiest modification:

No other restrictions other than add "until a total of 60 HP has been healed." much like the cap on Guardian of Faith.

That makes it pretty much as good as Prayer of Healing; better in combat, worse out of combat because the average amount healed in a 6 person party is lower and, while the rate of healing would upscale, the total healed would not.

As that type of limit would also leash the scaling multiplier i also believe it would have been a better approach than focusing on healing ticks and leaving the off-kilter scaling mechanic in play.

.

 

[5ekyu]

I’m with Mearls on this one. It’s a nice spell, that simply will not break anyone’s game. It breaks expectations a bit, but balance not at all.

It’s fine as is.

In combat, it just works. Out of combat, it gives you a short rest worth of healing at the cost of a spell slot rather than time and HD. Cool. So what?

That depends on whether or not you consider short rests for healing important things where that time limitation makes an important difference or not. In some campaigns that wont be. in others it will be. But by this logic of "so what" would you be fine if it just said "everybody goes to full" and skipped the dice by dice effect? They both would just "gives you a short rest worth of healing at the cost of a spell slot rather than time and HD. Cool. So what?" Removing "short rest" is the same regardless, right, no sense to need it to be scaled upward, right?

 

[FrogReaver]

That depends on whether or not you consider short rests for healing important things where that time limitation makes an important difference or not. In some campaigns that wont be. in others it will be. But by this logic of "so what" would you be fine if it just said "everybody goes to full" and skipped the dice by dice effect? They both would just "gives you a short rest worth of healing at the cost of a spell slot rather than time and HD. Cool. So what?" Removing "short rest" is the same regardless, right, no sense to need it to be scaled upward, right?

Kind of. Your propsal would let a level 2 spell fully heal a level 20 barbarian. The way it's written it would require upcasting it at a much higher slot to get that effect.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That depends on whether or not you consider short rests for healing important things where that time limitation makes an important difference or not. In some campaigns that wont be. in others it will be. But by this logic of "so what" would you be fine if it just said "everybody goes to full" and skipped the dice by dice effect? They both would just "gives you a short rest worth of healing at the cost of a spell slot rather than time and HD. Cool. So what?" Removing "short rest" is the same regardless, right, no sense to need it to be scaled upward, right?

A wild leap, but I’ll humor you this time.

So, that isn’t as easy to parse as you might think, so here’s what I think you’re saying.

*If a 2nd level spell that can bring everyone up to full* is no big deal, then making the spell simply heal everyone to full would also be fine. Since that obviously isn’t fine, the spell is a big deal.*

That doesn’t follow, at all. An equivalent argument would be, “because Expertise can sometimes make it so that only a roll of 1 can fail on some checks, it might as well just say “you automatically succeed on all checks with this skill. Clearly, therefor, expertise is broken.”

* (note that I said “fewer/no”, recognizing that the dice make it uncertain how much healing the party will get, and the vagaries of combat make it uncertain if that amount of healing will be enough)


Because there is a significant difference between “has a chance to” and “does, automatically and without chance for failure to do so”.

However, a spell that did guarantee full health, with a casting time that precluded its use in combat, wouldn’t be a huge deal, as long as it’s at least 2nd level. If it has a combat useful function, it would depend on that to determine what level it should be.

Healing Spirit, at worst, could be said to be too powerful for 2nd level. I’d consider moving it to 3rd level, at the highest. It saves the group some HD. That isn’t a big deal.

edit: also, as [MENTION=6795602]FrogReaver[/MENTION] points out, it would have to scale with up-casting, in order to be even kind of vaguely analogous.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I would be hesitant to compare these two since one is primarily a strong in combat heal (which can be used out of combat too but its strength is in combat while the other is the opposite.

i would view the original HS spell as approaching level 6th - IE a tier-3 spell because i see tier-3 as the point where the types of abilities gained do shift the gameplay rather dramatically away from the mundane as challenges. But even then, its scaling seems out of whack and needs adjusting.

6th level!?

For a spell that is ok in combat and...saves you having to take a short rest, but only if healing is all you need from a short rest (no party I’ve ever had in 5e is lacking plenty of reasons to take a short rest even if their HP isn’t low. It’s a consistent point of tension as to whether to short rest or press on), and only if you roll well or use a second spell or ability to max out the healing?

You think this spell is comparable to Heal, Disintegrate, Chain Lightning, Heroes Feast, the “Investiture of” spells, Globe of Invulnerability, Mass Suggestion, Transport Via Plants...what? Seriously? Because it may sometimes obviate the need to take a short rest, or allow the group to press on when low on HD (but somehow not low on 2nd level spell slots)?