(Magic) Tell Me the Conceits of Your Setting

After getting one response in a thread which, honestly, wasn't made for this sort of questioning... I figured I would start a basic thread of discussions on how magic affects your setting. The premise:

Discuss how the following spells and questions about said spells are handled in your setting.

Enlarge Person/Polymorph/Shapeshift/Wild Shape:


-Where does the addition/subtraction of mass come from/go to when such a spell is cast?

-How do these spells affect the caster post-casting?



Spells which require intact bodies (Raise Dead, Animate Dead, etc.)

- How common is the knowledge that bodies must be intact for these spells to work?



These are the first points I want to discuss... so let us work from here.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

Enlarge Person/Polymorph/Shapeshift/Wild Shape:
- Where does the mass come from/go to? Same place as Summoned Creatures. That's nobody knows and nobody cares land, in my campaign. Though it's clear that a Horn of the Valkyrie's brings in dead Viking warriors from the afterlife (where it's usually raining, as in the last seen of 13th Warrior).

Raise Dead
- I let PC's know the spell descriptions in the PHB, assuming it's a spell of their class or they are a magic expert (e.g., a spellcaster with significant ranks in Spellcraft). The main issue PC's are concerned with is the time to get a dead character to someone who can raise them, as those casters are few and far between. Even the requirement for a 12th level caster to get rid of lycanthropy in however many days was a major debate for my players, about which city would be most likely to have a "High Priest", but in the end, they found wolfsbane and cured the problem themselves.


- I can think of only three instances of this sort of thing in 28 years of gaming.
-- Cultist of Orcus had the remains of a paladin guarded to prevent their recovery, but a later party got them back (about 10 years later in real life, about the same in game time) and he was resurrected.
-- PC's disposed of Lolth's corpse at the end of G123/Q1. I believe chopping, burning, holy water, and scattering on the winds from a flying dragon were the combined methods used.
-- PC's turned in a witch, who had been killed by them and raised and caused trouble again. The authorities, naturally, burned her at the stake.

In general, PC's are killed but their party survives and rescues the corpse, unless it's a TPK in which case the dead characters don't matter anymore.

As for things the PC's kill, they generally don't care all that much, with a few exceptions for exceptionally vexing foes.

For the enlarge, polymorph type spells it really isn't spomething people ask. It's not like our concepts of matter and energy and known in a D&D setting. It's magic is the only answer anyone really needs plus it happens to be the truth.

As for the Raise Dead issue, that would be a knowledge religion check DC 15 or 20 to determine who knows that. So, not something that is common knowledge but the something that people who know about religions would more then likely know.

We do have an organization that is against these spells being cast, it is a sect of the god of death who believe that once someone is dead they need to stay dead. There is also an anti undead organization that sees anyone that comes back from the dead through these typoe of spells as a form of undead.

Some assassins will know how to defeat these spells, especially the very compitant ones.

haakon1 said:

Discuss how the following spells and questions about said spells are handled in your setting.

Enlarge Person/Polymorph/Shapeshift/Wild Shape

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We got rid of Enlarge, because it did little more than inflate character size by filling it with hot air.

Regarding Polymorph in 3.5E, we follow the rule of "Conservation of ECL".

Loonook said:

Where does the addition/subtraction of mass come from/go to when such a spell is cast?

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It doesn't. Physics is a nice thing to contemplate, if you have the time and inclination, but magic, IMO, is one of the only things that can simply sidestep it altogether. Or thumb its nose at the whole thing. Whatever. That's kinda what it's there for / how it works, etc. I tend to focus on the sources of 'magic', its mechanics, flavour, and so forth. But yeah, physics though, to a large degree, can be kissed goodbye.

How do these spells affect the caster post-casting?

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They'll feel a bit odd, generally. The degree to which things like this are described, let alone dwelt on, varies a lot from setting to setting. Likewise, the specificity of such details.

And the other questions, well, they're entirely campaign-dependent, IME. Things like making sure someone can't be resurrected have come up here and there, yes. And overall I'd say that knowledge of those kinds of details resides, for the most part, with those involved in or around 'the occult' to any appreciable extent. Er, which makes sense I guess. :/ Anyway, I just realised how very general these responses are. Sorry about that. Maybe I should give it some more thought, and post again afterwards.

Aus_Snow said:

Physics is a nice thing to contemplate, if you have the time and inclination, but magic, IMO, is one of the only things that can simply sidestep it altogether. Or thumb its nose at the whole thing. Whatever. That's kinda what it's there for / how it works, etc. I tend to focus on the sources of 'magic', its mechanics, flavour, and so forth. But yeah, physics though, to a large degree, can be kissed goodbye.

Click to expand...

Magic is there to add flavor to the game (as you said), and the game mechanics needs to be understood by the player.

To delve further into the meaning of magic is an exercise in mental self gratification.

Going to join the chorus on the first set of questions: it's just magic. Neither my players nor myself have really questioned the polymorphic spells.

As for the others,

Animate Dead: No real change. Fundamentally the same as animate object.

Create Undead: Binds a soul which has not yet crossed over into the underworld with a dab of Khaos, driving the soul mad. We're using a Greek inspired campaign, so if you are unable to pay the ferryman for passage to the underworld after you die, your soul must wait 100 years before he'll give you free passage.

Raise Dead/Resurrection: Only clerics of Hades can do this safely, and they must be convinced to do so. Non-Hades clerics can attempt it, but they run a high risk of inadvertently casting Create Undead. In either case, this can only be done if the soul has not crossed into the underworld. If the soul has crossed over, you've got to journey to the underworld and petition Hades directly for the release of a soul.

Reincarnation: Not generally available; special case spell. Does not create a new body. Instead, it infuses the soul either into the body of an unborn (unborn whatever, not necessarily the original race), or into an existing body as the body's original soul is leaving. More of a plot device spell than one available to the PCs. In the decade I've been with my group, it's never come close to coming up, even before we went Greek.

Wish/Miracle: Asking a god if s/he'll put in a good word with Hades on your (and the departed's) behalf. Likely going to come with a whole bunch of strings. Probably not worth the trouble. Also not much of an issue since we have yet to get to those levels in our games.

Beyond those spells, it is theoretically possible to journey into the Aidao (realm between the living and the dead where souls wait to be ferried to the underworld), find the departed soul you're seeking, and bring it back to the land of the living with you. Theoretically, because to date, no one in our group has tried.

Loonook said:

Enlarge Person/Polymorph/Shapeshift/Wild Shape:


-Where does the addition/subtraction of mass come from/go to when such a spell is cast?

Click to expand...

Who knows? Who cares?

-How do these spells affect the caster post-casting?

Click to expand...

Unless the caster is also the target, not at all; other than the obvious drain on that day's remaining casting capability.

Spells which require intact bodies (Raise Dead, Animate Dead, etc.)

- How common is the knowledge that bodies must be intact for these spells to work?

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Common enough for Raise. As far as I'm concerned, Animate can be a bit more flexible - since when, for example, did a Zombie have all its parts? And since when did a Wraith have any?

* Does (insert organization/group/race) take strides to prevent these spells from being cast?

*Do countermeasures exist to prevent these spells (i.e. would an assassin knowingly sever a head to prevent speak with dead/raise dead from being cast?

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Absolutely; such steps are taken by both the PCs and the opponents if they think they might otherwise have to face the same opponent again.

Lanefan

Loonook said:

Enlarge Person/Polymorph/Shapeshift/Wild Shape:

-Where does the addition/subtraction of mass come from/go to when such a spell is cast?

Click to expand...

Hammerspace. How? A Wizard did it.

Lanefan said:

Common enough for Raise. As far as I'm concerned, Animate can be a bit more flexible - since when, for example, did a Zombie have all its parts? And since when did a Wraith have any?
Absolutely; such steps are taken by both the PCs and the opponents if they think they might otherwise have to face the same opponent again.

Lanefan

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Actually, it is in the description of animate dead and create undead (both versions) that material components are placed within the mouth or eyesocket of the creature... thus it may be kind of important. However, in the case of a wraith, shadow, or other incorporeal I believe that you could probably pull them off headless (makes sense considering the whole concept of an incorporeal being not requiring much of a corpus to get itself along ).

Now, after looking into this whole situation and the way people handle their spells I find a little sadness... none of you have actually thought of the hows or whys of these spells? Hell, it seems to be a pretty fun argument to have at least, and provide color for the whole mishmash of magic types which could be hovering about in your various settings.

My real issue with spells which alter mass (either larger or smaller) is not due to some oddity... just whether people treat the mass as purely physical, metaphysical, or a combination therein. Also, considering the hazards of changing into shapes in folklore, I wondered how these spells would affect the average setting. Combine that with an interest in how magic affects a world after prolonged exposure... and we start to see that there are some intriguing side-effects to any difference.

Since most seem to have answered the Summon question (apparently literal creatures sprout up out of nowhere to do your bidding, leaving no trails behind) I figure I will ask a few more questions and hope for interpretations when I get back into town. Until then, anyone else answer away on my previous questions... love to hear from ya

Slainte,

-Loonook.