Where does this idea come from? (Forked Thread: The still "complete" list)

Mouseferatu · Jul 8, 2009

Forked from: The still "complete" list of official 4E products, now with 2010

Plissken said:
Wow...how long do you think 4e will last before the new edition? It just boggles me mind...

I've seen this sentiment expressed--the notion that 4E is putting out books at a "too rapid" rate--many, many times, and I'm not sure where it comes from. Assuming one is counting books specifically (I have no idea what's up with minis releases), the schedule is no more fast-paced than it was during the prior edition. Seriously.

Is it the fact that a lot of the books this time around have 2, 3, etc. in the title? Is that what's causing this perception? Or is it something else?

This isn't me being challenging. I really want to know.

coyote6 · Jul 8, 2009

Maybe because it's a hardback every month? (Plus adventures.)

I know later 3.5e was at that pace, but 3e didn't have that pace (certainly not of hardbacks), and even early 3.5e didn't (as I recall, anyways).

Note: I don't really have this perception, as I'm not currently playing 4e, and thus not buying the books.

billd91 · Jul 8, 2009

I know I was quite surprised at the stack of 4e books that a friend of mine had only 10 months after release. It was nearly as tall as my 1e hardback collection after 10 years of that edition.

Sooner or later, the potential content of books is going to start to peter out (maybe it'll get repetitive, maybe overspecialized), the sales of individual titles will slip, and they're still going to need to fund their business model. That next edition is going to look pretty attractive. My guess is we won't go until 2015 to see it.

drothgery · Jul 8, 2009

Mouseferatu said:
Is it the fact that a lot of the books this time around have 2, 3, etc. in the title? Is that what's causing this perception? Or is it something else?

It seems like a lot more of what's coming out is generic, not setting-specific (even the Eberron and FR Player's Guides have new classes, feats, paragon paths, and other crunchy bits that are fairly portable to other settings, and WotC seems to be encouraging people to do this). So while in 2007 if WotC released four books, it might well be two generic books, one FR book, and one Eberron book; in 2009, it's probably going to be four generic books.

Mouseferatu · Jul 9, 2009

It's true that 4E has more generic releases than 3.5, but it's not producing any more total books. I'm not really sure that I see that much of a distinction; it's still a case of "I like this concept, so I'll get it, I don't like that one, so I won't."

As far as 1E, I certainly won't argue the point that 4E (or 3E) has a much higher rate of production on hardcovers. But I would argue that they're not viable comparisons. The market--both generally and specifically--was a very different beast back then. Also, while 1E didn't have that many hardcover rule books, its catalog of adventure modules was enormous. (I don't have a specific count, but I would not be surprised to learn that the number of modules from 1E exceeds the entire print run of every book for 3E/3.5.)

JeffB · Jul 9, 2009

The major difference I see so far is really an issue of quality. 3.0's release saw alot of flawed books pumped out, riddled with errors, and even the designers hemming and hawing about eratta of certain "broken" things. The splatbooks of course were probably the worst offenders, but plenty of the hardbacks were pretty bad too, Deities & Demigods, MM2, BOVD, & the Epic Level handbook are ones that immediately come to mind for me. Plenty of stinker adventures and WTF products like the HBG/SHBG too. Despite all the disappointments, there were some real gems like the 3E Manual of the Planes and the 3E FRCG though.

Having recently bought several of the 4E releases (after owning only the corebooks since last year), the quality I feel is to a higher standard-ruleswise and utility-wise. It seems the 4E designers have a far better handle on the rules system in less than a year than the 3E crew did over a couple, and they have a clear direction on the business model as well (whether you like said direction or not). Not to mention the eratta has been far more sparse. I don't know if the quality will be sustainable over many years, but so far, I've gotta say (*gasp*) I'm far more impressed this time around with WOTC.

I'm A Banana · Jul 9, 2009

It's true that 4E has more generic releases than 3.5, but it's not producing any more total books. I'm not really sure that I see that much of a distinction; it's still a case of "I like this concept, so I'll get it, I don't like that one, so I won't."

Well, I'm sure the average D&D buyer notices a difference.

"I remember when I bought my one book a month in 3e and was happy. Now there are three books a month I need to get!"

If you didn't buy setting stuff, your total quantity of books that you feel compelled to buy could have grown quite a bit.

But aside from that psychological leap, I don't think 4e is putting out books "too fast." I mean, if you don't want a book, don't get it. I think the average D&D player also needs to be broken of the collector's habit anyway, so if they choose to not get Divine Power and to instead wait for the DDI, so they can still get the Eberron guide, that is, in my view, a more positive development.

Lanefan · Jul 9, 2009

Why are people concerned about the rate of release?

Perhaps it's because they don't want to see history repeat - again.

2e died largely because it was suffocated by its own bloat.
3e, one could argue, had either already met the same fate or was getting mighty close.
4e has barely been out a year yet has already seen enough book releases to cover a 5-year run...the bloat is building fast.

And, let's face it, it's a barrier to entry. Walk into a store a year ago looking to get into 4e, there were three books and a couple of adventures - nice and simple, and not too costly. Now, walk into the same store and there's a wall of 4e books starin' back at you - which ones do you need to play the game? Do you ask the guy behind the counter, or do you just give up and leave?

Lanefan

FireLance · Jul 9, 2009

Lanefan said:
And, let's face it, it's a barrier to entry. Walk into a store a year ago looking to get into 4e, there were three books and a couple of adventures - nice and simple, and not too costly. Now, walk into the same store and there's a wall of 4e books starin' back at you - which ones do you need to play the game? Do you ask the guy behind the counter, or do you just give up and leave?

Or you could just get a DDI subscription.

Jokes aside, that might not be a bad business model - when you sign up for a 1-year DDI subscription, you get a free pdf of all the rules that aren't on DDI and a short advice piece on how to set up and run a simple game.

malraux · Jul 9, 2009

Lanefan said:
And, let's face it, it's a barrier to entry. Walk into a store a year ago looking to get into 4e, there were three books and a couple of adventures - nice and simple, and not too costly. Now, walk into the same store and there's a wall of 4e books starin' back at you - which ones do you need to play the game? Do you ask the guy behind the counter, or do you just give up and leave?

Lanefan

I really question how big the market in people who know nothing about the game and just one day decide to buy the game is.

On the general release rate, the one advantage 4e has as a sustainable model is that each book is fairly narrowly tailored. A book either really helps you, or is completely irrelevant. In addition, the compendium is a good alternative to splat book purchasing.

Where does this idea come from? (Forked Thread: The still "complete" list)

Mouseferatu

Hero

coyote6

Adventurer

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)

drothgery

First Post

Mouseferatu

Hero

JeffB

Legend

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich

Lanefan

Victoria Rules

FireLance

Legend

malraux

First Post

Similar Threads