Where does this idea come from? (Forked Thread: The still "complete" list)

[Harlekin]

Forked from: The still "complete" list of official 4E products, now with 2010



I've seen this sentiment expressed--the notion that 4E is putting out books at a "too rapid" rate--many, many times, and I'm not sure where it comes from. Assuming one is counting books specifically (I have no idea what's up with minis releases), the schedule is no more fast-paced than it was during the prior edition. Seriously.

Is it the fact that a lot of the books this time around have 2, 3, etc. in the title? Is that what's causing this perception? Or is it something else?

This isn't me being challenging. I really want to know.

I think it will also depend on who makes these observations. If I follow a gameline, I like to be able to buy one new book per month. If I am mildly interested but don't follow a gameline I often do not look at their catalog for 6 months, at which point I am amazed how much stuff has been released. In my case, I was always considering to get into WH 2nd, and was amazed when they suddenly (in my perception) had 10 supplements.

As a some posters here do not play 4th, they may be under the same effect.

 

[JeffB]

Perhaps releasing 3.5E was their way of hitting the "reset" button.

Absolutely, the funny (sad) thing is they had already planned to hit re-set from the beginning according to people like Monte Cook, SKR, and other 3.0 designers).

As to the discussion at hand- I like the "everything is core" mentality of the books- however "everything is core" to me as a DM does not mean "everything is permissable without my consent". It simply means the books are designed to be useful for all DMs and players because they are not specific to a certain campaign setting or whatnot.

That may not be everyone's interpretation but that is mine (and frankly ALWAYS has been- I'm fairly accomodating to new items, spells, and classes, just please run it by me to make sure whatever you want to use fits/can be fitted to the setting I'm using and/or is not "broken" ).

Now if WOTC starts going the TSR route and requiring 15 prior splats and monster manuals to utilize the new X I just bought from them, then someone there is gonna get an earfull from me

For my own part- I'm personally not going to buying the "X Power" books, nor will I grab the PHB3 (nothing so far that I see in the PHB3 seems useable for the settings/games I run). But I will buy the MM3, and possibly DMG3. The PHB2/MM2 are bought already (and are great, love them both) and the DMG2 is on pre-order. I don't think the release schedule really bothers me at all- I buy what I want, when I want/need it. And if you are one of those gamers who feel compelled to keep up with the joneses (a mentality I personally can't identify with), the DDI will get you all the splat crunch for alot cheaper than the print books.

To be honest though, I could get plenty of gaming mileage out of just the "1s", MM2 and AV1.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It's true that 4E has more generic releases than 3.5, but it's not producing any more total books. I'm not really sure that I see that much of a distinction; it's still a case of "I like this concept, so I'll get it, I don't like that one, so I won't."

It may not seem significant, but it can be.

People generally want the "Core" stuff for their games, and many experienced gamers will pick and choose what setting books they'll pick up. Some don't buy any.

By shifting away from publishing setting specific books towards publishing core books, you pressure (not force, pressure) those gamers into buying more.

In addition, by spreading the Core over several books, you apply pressure to an even broader cross-section of the market. How many 4Ed books do you need to have access to the published versions of all of the classes in the 3Ed/3.5Ed PHB?

I can guarantee you that such considerations arose in our community when 4Ed was released. Out of 10+ gamers, everyone in the group has their own 3Ed PHB and several have a 3.5PHB. Only a few have any of the setting books. I'm the "Librarian," with nearly a complete collection of FR and Eberron stuff. IOW, few of the guys spent more than $100 on 3.X material. And as you go back across the editions, the model holds- one or 2 guys like me buy virtually everything, but most just buy a few key books (a PHB and maybe a DMG) and let everything else pass them by.

When 4Ed was released, the new business model was actually a concern. Disliked mechanical changes aside, many in the group were equally dismayed by the release schedule- they expressed concerns about how their favorite classes weren't in the new PHB, or were to appear in separate PHBs. Guys like me aren't really affected, but them? Some guys who might have spent $30-60 on the previous edition of D&D were being asked to pay $60-90...plus the delay of having to wait until the class they wanted was released.

At the very least, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth of some gamers. At worst, its a complete turnoff.

 

[ggroy]

What I am saying is that many of us look at the end of 3E and compare that to what is currently going on with 4E.

I've been looking at this along the same lines too.

A lot of people thought the last few 3E books were pretty bad and have concluded that it was the rate of release that caused the existence of bad books and that bad books led to the creation of 4E.

The cynical side of me thinks that this is "planned obsolescence" in action.

They then look at the rate of release for 4E and conclude that 4E must follow 3E's path. I don't know whether or not that will actually happen but I do know many people who believe it will.

I suspect this time around, the "what were they thinking?" mediocre or outright crap stuff which could have ended up in various 3E/3.5E splatbooks in the past, may possibly end up being confined to DDI for however long it takes to sort the designs out. I would guess that releasing such incomplete alpha or beta designs to paying DDI subscribers, would make better financial sense than releasing mediocre splatbooks (filled with crappy alpha/beta designs) which only the hardcore D&D "completionist" collectors and a few others would buy.

WotC perhaps may have learned some hard lessons from the era of 3.5E splatbooks, of releasing a lot of mediocre content. This time around they may just keep the mediocre stuff on DDI, until the designs have worked themselves out. Later on the better stuff may possibly end up being published in the annual Dragon Magazine books or even another splatbook if there's enough related content to fill up 160 pages.

 

[D'karr]

Now if WOTC starts going the TSR route and requiring 15 prior splats and monster manuals to utilize the new X I just bought from them, then someone there is gonna get an earfull from me

I was looking through the Eberron Player's Guide this morning and when I got to the equipment section I was elated to see that they included the Alchemy section as part of Alchemical Items directly on the book, instead of referring me to the Adventurer's Vault. It was also refreshing to see that they included the Alchemist feat as part of the book.

The more self-contained the books remain the more I'm bound to be grateful and spend more money on additional books.

 

[Mouseferatu]

That said, bloat is bloat.

It really, really isn't. If you'd like, I'll be happy to go into why setting bloat is far worse for the company (if not the market) than "other bloat," but this thread probably isn't the place for it. Feel free to fork, if you care enough to pursue it.

The original 4e model of having a new wave of three core books released each year didn't seem too bad...provided that's all there was. But we're only just now hitting a year and there's already...how many?

Except the original 4E model was never about "There will be three core books a year, and nothing more." Yes, they said one new PHB, DMG, and MM per year, but they never once claimed, or even implied, that those would be the only books.

 

[outsider]

Frankly, I rather like WotC's release schedule, and the way they are dividing up the content into different books. It's really easy to get the content you want and ignore the rest for the most part. For example, if you like martial characters, all you really need is the PHB1, Martial Power, and a DDI subscription(not even a continuous sub, just sub for a month here and there). The tidbits of martial content you might want from other books are easily snagged off of DDI rather than going out and buying more books.

I'm the type of person that'll buy 2 or 3 books a year. They way WotC has been dividing up the content gives me a pretty good bang for my buck.

 

[Scribble]

Frankly, I rather like WotC's release schedule, and the way they are dividing up the content into different books. It's really easy to get the content you want and ignore the rest for the most part. For example, if you like martial characters, all you really need is the PHB1, Martial Power, and a DDI subscription(not even a continuous sub, just sub for a month here and there). The tidbits of martial content you might want from other books are easily snagged off of DDI rather than going out and buying more books.

I'm the type of person that'll buy 2 or 3 books a year. They way WotC has been dividing up the content gives me a pretty good bang for my buck.

I agree.

As a DM I find with this edition I don't have to buy as many books this go around. I don't feel I "need" every book to help keep things challenging/fun for the players. Especially with a DDI subscription.

Previously I felt like things were spread out in a scattered fashion, they seem a lot more organized now.