Managing a large group of players

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Legend
I am DMing a campaign for 7 players starting in August - it will be our our first 4e game.

Any advice for running a large group from experienced 4e DMs? Thanks!

For example, the DMG recommends the following:
* Minimum map areas of 10 x 16 squares
* Assigning players to track initiative, treasure, conditions, etc.
* Force PCs to delay if players take to long to decide their actions
 

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malraux

First Post
7 players is, IMO, too many. Any way to bring it down by 2 or even 1 would help significantly (ie if two players can only make it half the time have them share a single character). That said, yes, you must have larger areas. I would also ban anything that adds another "ally". IE no beastmaster ranger, whatever the PHB2 class that gets a spirit animal, no summoner wizard. The board gets too cramped.

I would recommend several things to speed up initiative. First, a player handles initiative. He will call out who's turn it is and who is on deck. If the person who's turn it is doesn't know their action, they auto delay. The person who is on deck handles start of turn issues (mainly ongoing damage and regen). A person hands off their turn to someone else, then does their end of turn stuff (ie saves). In addition, the healers heal during their end of turn phase (ie the dice rolling and giving the info to the other player).

Based on my experience, the largest time suck during a person's turn that really doesn't matter to everyone else is adjusting HP. It takes time to add/subtract in head, erase and remark the sheet, etc, and really doesn't matter to anyone other than the person doing the healing. Whenever possible, that should move to outside the group focus of the turn.
 

Bodhiwolff

First Post
For what it is worth, here is my advice.

a. Diminish DM downtime by having each room, map, set of miniatures, etc. all set aside and orderly ahead of time.

b. We've instituted a "30 second rule" at our table, complete with a timer. You have 30 seconds to make your decision and have dice hit the table. Sure, your calculations and secondary actions might take longer, but if your dice don't hit the table in 30 seconds, you simply go on "all out defense" for your turn. It is a life-saver, and cut our encounter times in half. When we get more loose with the timing, our encounter times creep up again.

c. Transparency. Andy Collins talks a lot about this, but basically you have to get rid of the old attitude of "holding things secret and in reserve makes things more fun". It doesn't. Tell your players flat out what AC they need to hit, which monsters are minions, what the bloodied and dead values are for hitpoints, etc. Let it all hang out. It took me forever to let go of this (I'm from the old days when the DMG was the Forbidden Book, and it contained all the actual RULES, and only the DM knew how the hell this stupid game worked!) but it speeds things up.

d. Delegate. One player tracks monsters and health. One player controls hitpoints. One player controls tokens and tracking condition markers. One player controls the initiative, and is responsible for telling the next TWO players (or monsters) that their turn is coming up. Everybody has a job, and everybody works together to speed things up.

e. Power Cards and Gaming Devices. Cheatsheets. Condition token placards with *all* of the rules on them, so you can simply hand somebody a standup placard that says "I am Blinded" and let *them* worry about the rules. All of these silly, pre-designed, pre-printed little gamey devices are a real lifesaver, and cut your gaming time significantly! The rule is that you can *never* open a book during gametime. You actually shouldn't have to, if you've set up your game table properly.

f. Encounter Design. Long, grindy encounters tend to start to take longer as people's brains fuzz up. Never populate with "soldiers", but use lots of artillery and lurkers. Have something change midway through the encounter which impacts the way things are going (a cauldron overturns, creating new areas of difficult terrain, or a caged monster escapes, eating half of the enemy but then turning the battle into a 3-way fight). Keeping things interesting, mobile, and dynamic keeps people invested, keeps them awake, and keeps things moving. If things start feeling repetetive, they start slowing down as people get less invested.

g. "Just Go With It". Everybody has to recognize that the purpose is to keep things fun and exciting, and to keep things moving. Rules Lawyers are summarily ejected. If you don't think that a ruling was correct, keep your trap shut. If the DM screws up, he'll fix it after the break. "Just Go With It" needs to be at the top of everybody's head, so that they can make suggestions, hear the adjudication, and still keep the game moving. If everybody is too worried about getting things "right", you'll never get anything done.

h. "Do Something Cool" card. I read about this here on Enworld, and it really works. Along with a power card to do your At-Will attacks and your Basic attacks, make up a green at-will card that says "Do Something Cool!'. It reminds players that they are *supposed* to think outside the box, come up with half-baked ideas, and make things fun. With this handy little reminder, they come up with innovative ideas outside of their Power-Set, and the DM simply uses pg. 42 to adjudicate and keep things moving. The excitement generated by these "cool" moves, whether they succeed or fail, keeps things exciting, and therefore keeps things moving.

i. Have your Dice/Card/Whatever ready rule. We actually set up a protocol to stop bad behaviour. If you get up out of your chair to move your mini, take your card with you so you don't waste time moving back again. Have your dice set aside specifically for that ability (lots of my players keep little piles of dice on each card) and roll your d20 AND your damage together. Each player adopts behaviours which reduce their individual turns, and therefore the whole game moves along.

j. If you *must* play with 7 players, then how about adopting a co-DM? Why not have somebody run half the game alongside you, from the tactical perspective. They do half the rolling, half the calculating, but one DM runs the overall story and has ultimate say on how things go. You're already at a party of 8 people, so why not add a 9th and cut the gametime significantly?
 

Vaslov

Explorer
I run a game with 9 players and would not have it any other way. I love it. Most of what I have to share is version neutral. Some great tips above so I will try to stay on other thoughts.

1. Understand what drive your players. Story? Combat? Puzzle solving? With a large group you will likely have people all over the spectrum. Bring something to the table for each of the players is something you should plan to do over the course of the game. I try to have a story important moment for 2-3 of the characters per game where their contribution is critical.

2. Keep their attention. With such a large group this can be very tough. You will find side conversations going on. Completely natural. Just set some ground rules that when called on they are in game they need to react.

3. One thing I love about having such a large group is early on they can handle larger challenges. Don't be afraid to toss something nasty at them. From threads I have seen on EN I (anecdotally) believe there are a significant number of 4E DM's that will stay away from Solo's. A large parties are made for solos. They can take a beating and keep on ticking while the party will have plenty of special powers to go around.

4. Skill challenges can be multi faceted. Mutiple skills checks needed across the board over a short time period to win the battle. There is a great thread somewhere on the boards that talks about skill challenges where Priatecat (I think) had players batteling some tenacles while others made skill checks to keep some evil bad nasty locked away in its arcane cage. Look it up as it oozes ideas about skill challenges, which large parties excel at.

5. I know it's hersey, but most of the time I don't use a mat for mini's. I do pull it out for important battles, but most of the time we run it in our minds. As the DM just keep in mind that you want the players to do cool things with their powers. Encourage it with some favorable rulings about what can be done when playing w/o mini's.

When I do pull out the mat I have one long side of the table reserved for me. Their is not enough room for everyone so the players cycle in and make their move. Meanwhile they take the situation back to everyone else and they brainstorm on next steps as a team. Much to my suprise this has actually fostered better teamwork and coordination.

6. I see some others mention a co-DM. I have one player who swithced sides of the screen to be a co-DM, but it was not planned to be that way. In a large group decision making is a slow process. Everyone wants to voice their characters opinion and have an impact. It takes time and I let them have it. Well, most of the time. :) One of my players could not stand it. Too much chaos and time wasted for her and she was about to quit until I explained what I needed in a co-DM. I typically let her run most of the NPC's in combat rolling dice/etc and some of the roleplaying of NPCs during encounters. It lets me focus on the big picture and deal with rule questions when they come up. She loves it as she gets to (virtually) beat on the rest of our friends and scare the dickens out of them from time to time speaking as an NPC. Sure she can say something unplanned, but I'm free to adjust plans to match what she says. The game has taken some great unexpected twists thanks to this and is richer for it.

I hope this helps! Have fun!

p.s. coordinating schedules for a game of a large groups stinks. Think upfront how you want missing players to be handeled as a group. This isn't your problem alone so I suggest not trying to solve it on your own.
 

Mathew_Freeman

First Post
Yeah, everything the two people who got here first said. :)

Main things I would re-emphasise:

1. Someone else tracks initiative. This is your priority - get this done and it'll help.
2. Roll attack and damage dice together! Sounds stupid, but makes a huge difference.
3. Every player must have their modifiers and damage worked out ahead of time. It's incredibly frustrating when you have a player that sits there week after week mumbling "so it's +2 for my proficiency, +3 for strength, +2 because I'm fourth level, what does that come to?" Get them to write it out and add it up. The official character builder is FANTASTIC for this.
4. This is my key bit of advice. Act quickly when running monsters. Players pick up on your style - if you're making quick decisions, and then snapping out "OK, who's next?" at the end of your turn then they will, too.
5. In fact, saying "Who's next?" at the end of every player's turn really helps, to be honest. Hurry them along, don't be afraid to let them know they're going too slow!
 

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