I need some DM advice

TheClone said:

According to my experience players begin to start their own side "plots" if they are not occupied with the game.

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Really? Then I wish you'd have some experiences like I've had.

I've had players create, on their own initiative and out of their own resources:
academy to teach villagers how to resist rape attempts (known as the "Anti-Rape Army").
purchase lots of slum areas to create cheep, quality housing for refugees (of Cyre).
start charitable organizations in the midst of slums, and defend them by wiping out several local gangs.
a major political faction, based around their character's seduction of a noble's daughter.
shipping companies to trade across oceans, employ some NPCs they defeated, and generate wealth (for their mansion).
pirate companies to employ some defeated NPCs and generate wealth.
... and others that I'm blanking on.

Each and every time it has added a new dimension to my campaign, made things even more fun, and been a great story that any of us can recall with a single word or phrase. They were enjoying the campaign already, were inspired by what it contained, and decided to do something interesting and fun that fit both their character's goals and their own personalities. The results have been awesomely fun, and just made my games that much better for everyone (especially me, since the whole thing was a surprise that I got to learn about as it unfolded, unlike the main plot).

I've had a few bad ones, mostly a single player wanting to make his PC's personal story into the campaign's main story (instead of simply a developing part of that tale). The secret prince of the destroyed nation, the gunslinger with a grudge against a particular rail baron, and a couple of other character concepts with a built-in story that the player wanted to make into a major campaign focus.
None of those were started in play. They all happened in character creation.


So, to the OP, go with it, see what happens, and then decide if you need to do something about it. You'll probably enjoy it as much, or even more, than your players do.

Good luck.

Oh, gosh, this is just full of opportunities, actually.

First off, remember that this is probably a phase. They are playing with the system and testing your bounds as a GM. Probably not consciously, but still.

Second, whatever you have planned? Either find a way to work it with what they're doing, or just abandon it for a time. Try and figure out what their angle is, so you can anticipate it and make it awesome.

As an example, let's say they are planning to run some sort of underground gambling operation? Sounds like a blast! Let it work for a session or so. What can be done from there?

* The local thieves' guild might not take kindly to unauthorized operations.
* A religious group decides that monsters dying for sport is immoral, so they work to shut it down.
* The kobolds' relatives try and break them out in a heroic scheme
* The kobolds themselves make a run for it
* The white dragon freezes a noble's cloak, making him look foolish at a social event

There's tons of opportunity. Work with them, and make the awesome happen.

-O

I agree with the other posters that you should use whatever they are plotting and have fun with it. It should be interesting.

If you really want to bust it up use a few Monsters you can't really capture. A few undead or incorporeal foes for example.

A jail break is the obvious solution to the problem of the prisoners.

You could also have trouble come home--a break in or attack on their lair. The kobolds and dragon eager join in with the attackers. After a while the players will get tired of having to fight the same monsters over and over.

As others have said the economics of maintaining a prison will get old after a while too--especially feeding a dragon. Plus the expense of guards when they are away, walls or other confinement, sanitary needs. A little research into the illness associated with improper sanitation will give you plenty to work with.

Also, consider the players' needs. It is possible that the adventure just isn't their cup of tea. If they are only doing this because they are bored you can always abandon the adventure and do something completely different. Take some time to talk with the players about their characters. Are they happy with then? What goals do they have? Is the adventure going to meet those goals? If not then find another one or make one up.

I really like the following idea:

It is really quite impossible for the party to hide their mini-zoo. So, for whatever reason, you have a bad guy in the town who, for reason X, wants people to leave the town or to cause strife. He does some rituals, some curses, and makes the signs point back to the players. A couple of well-placed shills yelling "they are using the monsters as sacrifices for dark rituals!!" should make things interesting.

As an aside, when you, as a DM, say yes, it is not just saying yes. Say yes, and then think to how a soap-opera would deal with it and twist it back to bite them in the butt later on.

Your players are taking an interest in the game world and seeing possibilities beyond a spoon fed plot. Count your blessings and think of all the fun adventures that can spring from their little operation. Perhaps a gang of NPC's has a similar thing going on and the PC's are unwanted competition? Run with it and have fun.

My advice really is go with it, and try to build it into the plot.

What I would personally do in this sort of situation is try to get the PCs to form an attachment to the sentient creatures they have kidnapped. If you can get them to become sympathetic or even friends then they can become useful plot hooks later on.

I would also be tempted to have the local law enforcement start to get suspicious or start poking around if the group give them any cause. This could be interesting in itself especially if the watch are corrupt and expect a little coin for their disinterest or turning a blind eye. This could be the thin end of the wedge that leads to them getting caught up in all sorts of criminal dealings which brings more serious problems. Paying off the watch is one thing, dealing with a nosey paladin of Kord or Pelor is another.

mudbunny said:

I really like the following idea:
As an aside, when you, as a DM, say yes, it is not just saying yes. Say yes, and then think to how a soap-opera would deal with it and twist it back to bite them in the butt later on.

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I don't like that idea. Sounds like spoiling the fun for the players big time.

ValhallaGH said:

Really? Then I wish you'd have some experiences like I've had.

I've had players create, on their own initiative and out of their own resources:
academy to teach villagers how to resist rape attempts (known as the "Anti-Rape Army").
purchase lots of slum areas to create cheep, quality housing for refugees (of Cyre).
start charitable organizations in the midst of slums, and defend them by wiping out several local gangs.
a major political faction, based around their character's seduction of a noble's daughter.
shipping companies to trade across oceans, employ some NPCs they defeated, and generate wealth (for their mansion).
pirate companies to employ some defeated NPCs and generate wealth.
... and others that I'm blanking on.

Each and every time it has added a new dimension to my campaign, made things even more fun, and been a great story that any of us can recall with a single word or phrase. They were enjoying the campaign already, were inspired by what it contained, and decided to do something interesting and fun that fit both their character's goals and their own personalities. The results have been awesomely fun, and just made my games that much better for everyone (especially me, since the whole thing was a surprise that I got to learn about as it unfolded, unlike the main plot).

I've had a few bad ones, mostly a single player wanting to make his PC's personal story into the campaign's main story (instead of simply a developing part of that tale). The secret prince of the destroyed nation, the gunslinger with a grudge against a particular rail baron, and a couple of other character concepts with a built-in story that the player wanted to make into a major campaign focus.
None of those were started in play. They all happened in character creation.

Click to expand...

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my post. I wasn't referring to any plot the characters make up. I myself currently have some players that make up great plots during the game or character creation and definitely help building a rich campaign. What I meant in my previous post was that if players do make their own plots that are stressing the limits of the campaign they are not occupied with the game (or the game doesn't occupy them). I don't know whether the kobold thing is meant to stress the campaign's limits. Surely it may turn out all fun, but it also may turn out that they want to undermine something.

An example of what I am referring to: Some years ago we played a 3e campaign with a DM that wasn't one of the best. We were a group that focused on tactical play. But the DM was pretty unable to present us with real challenges. The evil dragon was scried on easily. A quick teleport and the final battle was there. No magical countermeasures for more challenge. Additionally the DM tried to put up some challenge, but he was doing it by having a dragon with a too high CR. 2 PC were unable to hit the dragon except with rolls of 19 or 20 and teleported out again quickly. In this campaign the group focused on building up a castle of their own and basically more or less took ofter the initiative and more or less ignored the DM, just to have some fun (because his adventures were not mostly).

I don't know if that makes my meaning totally clear, but I hope it helps.

This sounds AWESOME.

I would love if my players were more creative, and gave me more spring boards to jump from. I usually have to wring them out and torture them for plot motivation..

You could even hold an encounter and skill challenge from the kobolds perspective. Use companion character rules and give each player a different type of kobold monster, and have them escape their own prison!

The party should ultimately be held responsible for the chaos the escaping kobolds and dragon unleash in the town..

But i'd try to figure out their angle first. Don't want to ruin their plans (Even if their mission is to ruin yours, and payback is enticing)

Yeah, this sounds like fun. I do sympathise with your feeling of inexperience, and that this is getting out of your hands. But I'd run with it and see where they take it. Enjoy the ride. Kobold Fight Club.. hehehe... that's funny.

Meanwhile, you can start letting things tick over in your head. What consequences might their actions have. Kobolds have family too. Are they being careful about keeping this secret? Any of your kobolds manage to escape. Did they follow the pcs and see where their kin were taken?

Check out the Kobolds that come in one of the free early Dungeon magazines. Kobold Rat Master!!! He's one mean Kobold! You wouldn't want to be messing with his grandson!!!

Oh, and a wyrmling? Does s/he have a mummy and daddy too? What happens when proud dad goes to visit his daughter who has just moved into he first lair and finds naught but blood stains and boot steps??? I tremble to think!

I say go with it and see where it takes you (it sounds really fun). When you look back on games of the past, this is the kind of thing you will remember most.

During a 2e game in the early '90s, my players decided to feed an artifact to a rust monster to see what would happen. None of us are ever going to forget the resulting chain of events.