Adapting Asheron's Call "vitae" death mechanic. (or, how to be a deadly DM and still

robgmsft

First Post
The players are watched over by a benevolent God. Any time they die, at dawn the next morning their corpse vanishes and they appear naked out of the fog. (The rest of the party must recover their goods.)

The player is at -4 on all skill rolls, attacks, and saves. Monsters are at +4 on unopposed saves or checks. (Spell DC for example)

After each subsequent 1/8 of a level the player goes up, the penalty is reduced by 1. After a 1/2 level, they're back to normal.

I use the resurection sequences as a cool way to have a chat with their God, drop hints, etc.

This mechanic allows me to get away with NO roll fudging as a DM. (Which is REALLY nice!)

Thoughts? I've found that -4 on everything is painful enough that charcters try really hard not to die!

It is fully worked into my campaign setting's story line too. =]
 

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jlhorner1974

First Post
Wow, I have never seen anything like this before.

It's a bit nostalgic really.. kinda reminds me of Diablo II on Hell difficulty all the times I died in a screenful of monsters and had to run around like an idiot with no armor and resistances further in the negatives than Enron, and somehow manage to grab my stuff while avoing a Multishot Lighting Enchanted... but I digress.

In spite of the fact that this may be a bit unrealistic for 1st level characters, the more I think about this, the better I like it.

IMO, a -4 may even be a bit harsh, although considering the PCs don't need to supply their own resurrection magic, this may be justified. A -2 may be enough though.

I want to run a campaign soon and this problem has plagued me for a while. I want the characters to meet with gods at some point, but it should be extremely special and happen later in the campaign when the characters have done enough to be noticed.

I think with some changes though, this may work for me.

How about this:

When a character dies, the appropriate spell must still be cast (raise dead, resurrection, true resurrection) and the appropriate costs/offering must be made (in gold, gems, magic items, whatever). The spell would be as scarce and as costly as the DM wishes.

When the character is returned from the dead, he or she gains The character gets a "penalty" with an XP "debt". XP gained during this time still leads toward advancement, but also reduces the debt at the same time. When the debt reaches 0, the penalty is removed. The penalty cannot be negated in any way while a debt exists (although perhaps a wish or miracle could allow the recipient to ignore the effects of the penalty for a short time). If a character dies several times, a separate debt is kept for each, and each is paid for one at a time, with the oldest debt always paid first.

For a default penalty, I would recommend negative levels. Reason? The mechanic is already there in the game and it's easy to use, and it makes sense because dying is not completely unlike being drained of life force. Probably 1 negative level would be enough, 2 or more negative levels if your players need a stonger incentive under this system.

As for the debt, you could use a certain value based on level, or you could have the raise dead assign a larger "debt" then true resurrection since the magic is less powerful. Probably a range of anywhere from 100 XP per level to 1000 XP per level would be reasonable. As a starting point, maybe have True Resurrection use 200 XP * level, Resurrection use 400 XP * level and Raise Dead 600 XP * level.

The DM can adjust the "penalty" to be as severe as desired, and have the "debt" be as large as necessary to provide a real penalty for death without wrecking advancement and having party members at greatly unequal levels.

The DM can make debts cumulative. For example, for every death after the first the debt increases cumulatively by 50 XP * level. Example: A 10th level character dies 4 times on an adventure and is resurrected using the resurrection spell each time. The first debt would be 4000 XP, the next 4500 XP, then 5000 XP, and then 5500 XP. The cumulative penalty can be reset to 0 (the normal value) at level up, or after two levels up, or even by completing a quest.

If a player gets too far in the hole, the DM may allow the player to create a new character instead, but it should start at least a level below the old character to provent abuse this way.

The more I think about this, the more I like it. And the DM can customize it to his or her wishes.

What do you think?
 

well

you could just kill them and eventually they'd learn to deal with it? :)

honestly i understand what your trying to do and i dont want to appear harsh, but the fun of the game is not in the character.. its in the players.

once the players learn that the characters can all die from here to high water, they'll start to love the whole and not the bits.

there are billions of interesting characters waiting to be played, dont let your folks get sucked into thinking one type is better than the others...

and oddly enough, i've found that once that realization occurs, people start to become MORE attached to their characters and try even harder to stay alive. :)

joe b.

ps. this is obviously just my opinion. remember tho, its your game and you do what you want... even if that includes telling guys like me to "stuff it" :)
 

jlhorner1974

First Post
No offense taken.

I think everyone should be free to run the kind of campaign they want, and there is no "right" or "wrong" way to handle death. There's nothing wrong with not "babying" characters and let the chips fall where they may. That is what the rules have done from the beginning, after all.

Also, I honestly think that the personality of the players has a lot to do with how you should handle it. After all, as a DM, you have to run the kind of game you like and the players like.

To be fair though, the point of this thread is that some of us want to be able to be a bit more lethal and let characters die without having to have characters lose levels or reroll characters, while still having a penalty to encourage smart play.

In my campaign, I want to design complex plots that closely relate to characters that play out over time. That's difficult to do if death is final. I'd really like to run a conversion of the 2E module "Return to the Tomb of Horrors", and if death were final, well, I'd never get through it. (laugh)

Actually I really like the simplicity and reality of "one strike, you're out". It's realistic, it's easy to handle, and it encourages good play in most cases.

I would rather have a roleplaying-heavy campaign that focuses on encourages heroics, clever problem solving, and risk-taking (without being too reckless) instead of a more realistic "grim n gritty" setting. I want to punish reckless play without being too harsh on occasional unlucky rolls. And in my world, magic that restores the dead to life is quite rare and has a much steeper cost than listed in the Player's Handbook. I want a player death to mean something, but I want to try to roughly keep the party around the same level and I don't quite like the mechanic for death as written in the PH. I also don't like the fact that True Resurrection allows rivivification with no penalty.

I am just trying to explore how to possibly change the core rules for death to something better suited for a long term campaign heavy on roleplaying.

I still haven't firmly decided on how I will handle death. Your comments will make me rethink my approach and consider being harsher. Of course, your opinion is valid and I appreciate your candor. People should speak their mind in a calm and logical fashion without resorting to pettiness like you have done.

What I'm really interested in are people's thoughts on whether my ideas or the original's poster's ideas can work, and if so, how they could be improved further.
 

Jeph

Explorer
Right, I'll get useful help out of the way, so that I can cut to the chase.

Useful Stuff:
I like it, but it seems to lean strongly twords games with high divine magic, or the characters are extreemly special. I also reccomend using negative levels, mahbe they start out with 3, regain 1 every (level when death occurred x 250) XP.

The chase:
Hey, you live in Raleigh! How old are you? In what area do you live? I'm 14, and live near 5 points and Fallon Park (If you know the places).
 


jlhorner1974 said:
Of course, your opinion is valid and I appreciate your candor. People should speak their mind in a calm and logical fashion without resorting to pettiness like you have done.

this is a bit OT but i'm gonna do it anyway.

I LOVE your use of the unclear clause "without resorting to pettiness"! Its friggen brilliant!

Am i being calm and logical and not petty?
Am i not being calm and logical...... "resorting to pettieness like you have done".

thats sweet :) i have to remember next time i've got to be polite to a jerk to use something like that... hehehe

i prefer the "lose a point of constitution" penalty instead of the level penalty... its a lot less of a mechanical headache on the player (no big switches) and the DM (not so many CR difficulties.)

joe b.
*who took it to mean that he's a calm and cool :cool: guy*
 

jlhorner1974

First Post
Ooops. Sorry, I should have read my post again before I sent it --my words were very unclear.

I wasn't saying you were being petty. In fact, I was saying the opposite. I just meant it was cool that you weren't being a jerk.

I really did not intend anything unkind. Please accept my sincere apology.

Note to self: That's the last time I post at 3 AM...
 
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robgmsft

First Post
So here is how I run it in my campaign world. The players are "Lord Protectors" of a new frontier village. The island Arosh that they are on was recently reclaimed from demon-spawn and is now being resettled. The lord protectors are working-class nobility that gain regional free reign in return for keeping their town safe and growing it. The Gods of good are behind this effort and grant the Lord Protectors conditional immortality so long as they serve properly. This led to a very interesting adventure where two NPC lord protectors of a southern village were desperate to recover their populace after it was stolen into slavery particularly because one was elven and one was human. As quasi-immortals their relationship could work, as mortals it was doomed...

-4 to all rolls/saves/resists I have found to be a strong dissuasion to dying, yet still be work-outable. After 1/2 level they're back in the action which generally only takes 4 sessions.
 

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