D&D General How to be a Not-Terrible DM: Thoughts on the Upcoming DMG

[EzekielRaiden]

I interpreted it as Gygax talking about someone we might refer to as a rule's lawyer. They can be quite annoying.

I find that the specter of "rules lawyering", and other alleged backseat GMing, is invoked almost as often for merely someone speaking out of turn. Which, you'll note, the passage does explicitly refer to players speaking out of turn. It's not an unusual connection to draw.

Peer pressure can be direct or indirect communication. Telling another player, "Knock off the sexism, Bob" is a form of peer pressure.

Then you and I use different senses of the word. Sitting down with someone to have a genuine conversation and listening to what they have to say--and expecting to be listened to in return--being called "peer pressure" is, to me, borderline disingenuous. "Peer pressure" explicitly refers to pushing someone to do something they don't want to do, and implicitly involves judgment and ostracism for those who fail to measure up. Referring to everything by a term that is technically neutral but almost always used in an (often extremely) negative way is, IMO, misleading. Hence why I refer to it by the more specific term: communication. Actually communicating with your players to try to find, and fix, a problem is many orders of magnitude better than trying to coerce someone into behaving "correctly", which is what peer pressure is--a form of coercion.

And, fundamentally, that's my problem with the given passage. Every single part of it is tainted with "you must coerce your players into toeing the line, and hurtful, unkind actions are both warranted and justified in pursuit of this goal." It treats so-called "problem" players--which, guess who gets to decide who's a "problem" or not!--as barely even children. It's deeply, fundamentally disrespectful.

Massaging an actually useful message out of that absolute garbage heap takes more effort than just stating a new, healthy message instead--which will, without fail, require that you talk about things like listening to your players, having a genuine conversation, and being respectful and supportive. If a player cannot reciprocate, then naturally they should be asked to leave, but "sometimes people behave badly and need to be asked to leave" is hardly ground-breaking advice.

 

[MGibster]

Then you and I use different senses of the word. Sitting down with someone to have a genuine conversation and listening to what they have to say--and expecting to be listened to in return--being called "peer pressure" is, to me, borderline disingenuous. "Peer pressure" explicitly refers to pushing someone to do something they don't want to do, and implicitly involves judgment and ostracism for those who fail to measure up.

If you're encouraging or discouraging some type of behavior within your group you are engaging in peer pressure. It doesn't really matter how you're doing it, it might be direct or indirect, you might use a carrot or you might use a stick, but it's peer pressure. Your definition of peer pressure fits those cheesy public service announcement on drugs, drinking, and smoking they used to show me when I was a kid, but even then I knew those were baloney, and peer pressure is a bit more complicated than that. Sometimes it's downright positive.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Speaking of the DMG there is going to be a preview of it in 20 minutes at Gencon

 

[Scott Christian]

"Peer pressure" explicitly refers to pushing someone to do something they don't want to do, and implicitly involves judgment and ostracism for those who fail to measure up.

From an RPG table's definition, I think peer pressure is much more using other players' behavior to teach a player how to "not do the wrong thing." The most classic example is the player that takes forever to take their turn. If the other players show their frustration a little with small sighs, adding the numbers up for the person before they can, telling them which dice they're going to roll before they even reach into the dice box, using that time to leave the table and use the restroom or get a drink, etc. they are pressuring that player to pick up the pace. The other players also might take their turn faster to "lead by example," or compliment a short turn, both of which are other forms of peer pressure.

Of course it's true you will have some players that oblivious to these attempts at peer pressure. That's ok too. Then it's up to the DM to initiate their side of pressure, such as saying: "You don't seem ready, how about we skip you, you can decide what you're going to do, and we'll come back after so-and-so takes their turn."

I think all of those are a form of peer pressure because they all fall outside the rules and lean more into the social contract of the game.

 

[Scott Christian]

For the record, this popped up in my feed today.

DM Advice in Reddit

For the record, I never reply to anything in Reddit (I think I have like four replies, three to Inkarnate fantasy maps. This thread, like most things on there, is so full of garbage, it's no wonder there is a DM shortage.)

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

There was a saying in law school.

If you don't know who the gunners are in your class, you're a gunner.

Similarly, if a guy spends all their time complaining about how awful and crazy all of their exes are, then the exes aren't the problem.

In a similar fashion, if someone notices that every table they've played at is terrible, then the problem isn't the tables you've played at.

 

[Clint_L]

I agree with you about punishing players by messing with their character is just a bad way to handle things though.

It's always best to be direct, in my experience. Identify the problem and have an honest dialogue. If the person doesn't agree that there is a problem or can't be honest about the situation, then it's time for next steps. Screwing with someone's character to make a point is just being passive aggressive, IMO.

Edit: This is something most successful people in my profession learn as baby teachers. In your first year or two, you waste a lot of time trying to "relate" with kids who were behaving poorly. You know, trying to talk it through with them, get them to agree that their behaviour was inappropriate, come around to your way of seeing the world, etc. You kinda want to be everyone's friend, so you wind up beating around the bush.

Then you figure out that they pretty much always know what they did was inappropriate, and you're just wasting time and giving them a bunch of extra attention. Stop the behaviour, get them into a private place, identify the problem, explain what you want to see happen next, and then let them make a decision. It's more respectful and way more effective.

 

[Clint_L]

There was a saying in law school.

If you don't know who the gunners are in your class, you're a gunner.

Similarly, if a guy spends all their time complaining about how awful and crazy all of their exes are, then the exes aren't the problem.

In a similar fashion, if someone notices that every table they've played at is terrible, then the problem isn't the tables you've played at.

"Look around the room and try to identify the d*ckhead. If you can't spot them, then it's probably you."

Sadly, it was probably me more often than I care to admit.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

There was a saying in law school.

If you don't know who the gunners are in your class, you're a gunner.

Similarly, if a guy spends all their time complaining about how awful and crazy all of their exes are, then the exes aren't the problem.

In a similar fashion, if someone notices that every table they've played at is terrible, then the problem isn't the tables you've played at.

What about when someone notices that half+ of people who clamor for "DM empowerment" throw up constant red flags for the worst forms of Viking Hat DMing?

Because I don't choose to play with such folks, I don't (or very very rarely) have such problems at the table. But I see such toxic, jerkish behavior not only proudly claimed, but actively campaigned for as the best way to play.

 

[jasper]

And yet I have also seen threads full of

17 different posters: ask your DM
OP: ...I am the DM
17 further posters: well then you're the DM, you figure it out
OP: That's what I was trying to do by asking for advice!

There was a bloody epidemic of threads like this in the first three years of 5e. Not just here. RPG.net, Reddit, GITP. Every forum/site I used had threads like this. Over and over.

Specific advice is no more guaranteed to be useful than general advice. Especially in light of many very useful general tools, like Session 0, the X and O cards, lines and veils, and other tools that are versatile and applicable to nearly any game and style of play.

Or worse 18 posts saying read the manual. And no one giving a page number to help.