D&D 4E Revised 4E Wizard Class with Freeform Spellcasting System
Upper_Krust
Hero
Upper_Krust
Hero
Firstly apologies for the slow reply...
But my point is that FAR too many (official) powers are very similar and just there to pad out the books. Many are unnecessary and lead to rules bloat.
While you can argue my 2-page Class Revisions don't allow every single thing we see in the official 60+ pages of powers (from all sourcebooks) they do allow for a very large amount of those powers to be duplicated. Added to which anything not already featured could fit into a SINGLE extra page.
But my point is that FAR too many (official) powers are very similar and just there to pad out the books. Many are unnecessary and lead to rules bloat.
While you can argue my 2-page Class Revisions don't allow every single thing we see in the official 60+ pages of powers (from all sourcebooks) they do allow for a very large amount of those powers to be duplicated. Added to which anything not already featured could fit into a SINGLE extra page.
Upper_Krust
Hero
I am sure rules lawyers love the minutiae of different ranges between two different Ray 'spells' but I don't see that as adding depth, simply breadth.
As regards Thunderwave, its slightly better than the other powers in its bracket - that's why its so popular. I went a bit overboard saying it was overpowered though.
...well the two 'flaws' were completely new energy mechanics I created to add diversity.
The situation is this though, I simply don't foresee how with ONE extra page I couldn't cover EVERY power listed in all the sourcebooks. We are simply talking about a few new effects and a few new delivery systems.
If anything adding those new effects and delivery systems would completely blow the spell possibilities wide open.
Upper_Krust
Hero
My mistake - simply highlights what having my head out of 4E rulebooks for 6 years will do to someone.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Yeah, I agree that many powers, though not most by far, are of limited utility. There aren't a LOT that are actually worthless or entirely redundant though. One thing is, there's a lot of trade-offs involved. You will see some powers that are close functionally, but at different levels, and with subtle variations. Those variations make a difference in 4e! Also they present choices to players, take A at level X or B at level Y (probably because you want to take something else at X). While the large size of the power lists might be argued to offset the value of these minor variations, there IS a good argument to be made, and I think you're kind of just passing over it when you dismiss them as 'just there to pad out the books'. I think that the 4e developers weren't 'padding out books', they were filling in actual niches where they saw that someone wanted another power, in at least many cases.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
There's a huge amount of perception there though. In the thread about how broken Beguiling Strands is, it was roundly criticized for being 'worthless and no more than a filler for people taking a 3rd at will'. 4e is so finely balanced that EVERYTHING is situational and conditional. I think T-Wave is potentially a very good power, but at the same time its a hard power to actually use in a build.
Right, I just think you're going to quickly run into a lot of those flaws when expanding your sort of mechanics to cover more of what 4e does, that's all.
I'm a bit dubious of this claim, but I would be happy to be proven wrong. Again, I think there will be a bunch of questionable combos there though.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
And utterly over shadowed by Beguiling Strands... in the same build slot, ie fool you ditwad controller for taking Thunderwave.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
My mistake - simply highlights what having my head out of 4E rulebooks for 6 years will do to someone.
I was invoking a later official adjusted version ... which is marginally more powerful according to those who make fine distinctions but having easy value in its original form - (Targeting will made some of its effects more reliable). In my opinion in either case is an acceptable simplification in a game of D&D subject to taste you would likely prefer the adjusted version. The range of pull is well within a battles threat range and deceptions being reliable at level 7 (one level under raising the dead is ummm yeah check out how close this power is like a level 1 wizard at will -- ie this is actually kind of weak letting the pull be automatic is pretty tame for a 7th level effect)
You might need to separate your taste in the powers from the players being able to construct them if you want this tool to really do it's job.
Last edited:
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Meh, one does thunder damage, one does psychic. One puts out a pretty decent amount of damage, the other doesn't. One targets FORT and one targets WILL. They are, to some extent, useful for different things. I tend to agree that BS is a bit of a spoiler power, being party friendly and just generally being obviously simple to employ. The damage output of T-Wave isn't ENOUGH more to have a vast impact, etc.
I'd actually use this to point out how some fairly trivial differences between powers makes them very different in play. For a front-line 'blast 'em up' wizard staff build T-Wave can be a very solid choice, even with BS in the mix, though most wizards would now likely take the latter by default. Still, you can build up a build that is very potent with 'storm' powers and does things like carve out a single ally that gets missed, expand the power's effect, increase damage, etc. All this will apply to many other powers for such a build, so it isn't particularly a foolish use of resources. If you're going to build in that direction ANYWAY, then this is a fairly smart power to have.
4e is subtle. That's one of the two blade edges of this two-page thing, it misses a lot of that subtlety.
