D&D 5E Everyone Starts at First Level

Everyday Paladin · Oct 23, 2014

Authweight said:
In my campaign I'm planning on doing something close to this (everyone will start at level 3 no matter what), but I also plan on giving everyone double XP if anyone in the party is higher level than them and triple if they are the lowest overall. The flavor is that they learn much faster with experienced people around to teach them. With that amount of bonus, new characters should be able to catch up pretty quickly.

If the party average gets to be around 7 or so, I'll probably up the starting level for new characters so they aren't so terribly behind. That will be a bit before I need to deal with, though.

epochrpg said:
I'm not a fan. Currently I'm 7th level in a campaign. We've had a lot of people join at 1st level as we adventure. Invariably, they either hang out near the back and cringe in fear from danger for the first session, simply trying to survive without being noticed,then auto-level to 3rd from their "share" of the XP. Then they try (and fail) to play a useful role as we are fighting monsters they cannot harm much at all (oh that isn't a magic weapon? Sorry, the monster pretty much ignores it). They invariably take a single hit and get hurled across the room into unconsciousness and death saves (everyone's idea of a good time). After their "share" of XP, they invariably level again, but the contribution of eating a single attack from an enemy is off-set by other group members having to use their actions to keep that character alive and also other group members getting less XP for the privilege because it is divided up more ways.

I am also not a fan because after seeing this, I know I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT WANT to be in the boat that these PCs are in. I've thought "I have this cool alternate character idea in mind, but I cannot dare switch from my 7th level character because I'd be forced to start at 1st." If my PC dies without chance for raise dead, and I had no choice but to start over, I'd be tempted to quit, because "no gaming is better than bad gaming" and from what I've seen (and this is my experience, do not try to deny my experience of what I've actually seen in games I've played), nothing is suckier than being 1st level in a party of higher level people. Constantly failing at everything is not fun. Constantly making death saves and feeling like a drain on the party's XP and resources is not fun. The "Real Role players" may call me a "munchkin" for that, but I want to play BIG DAMN HEROES not someone who needs to be babysat.

Starting at 1st level is great and fine; when everyone else is also 1st or 2nd. But past that, it is a real drag, from my perspective as a player in a campaign using this rule (though I've been fortunate enough to not be on the receiving end of it).

I am in total agreement. The novelty of playing the squire, apprentice or whatnot is far outweighed by the problems you addressed above. This is definitely not for me. I'd have to respectfully decline playing if I had to start over with an arbitrary (in my opinion) level penalty after losing my original PC.

Mishihari Lord · Oct 23, 2014

epochrpg said:
Then they try (and fail) to play a useful role as we are fighting monsters they cannot harm much at all (oh that isn't a magic weapon? Sorry, the monster pretty much ignores it).

Really? When I've played with a mix of 1st to 12th level characters, the higher level PCs pretty much always loaned the lower level guys their backup gear. It increases survivability quite a lot.

And if the lowbies can't contribute that's the DM's fault. There are plenty of ways to allow low level PCs to reasonable contribute. Frex, the high level PCs do a frontal assault on the dragon, while the low level guys take on the orc minions gaurding the floozle. Once they've got it, it's time to run. And it's very little additional work to design encounters this way since I craft each encounter to the particular PCs anyway.

Doug McCrae · Oct 23, 2014

I get that troupe-based play supports 'always start at level 1'. Does it not create additional difficulty for the kind of detailed accounting, particularly about time, associated with Old School? It seems to me that either the PCs that are not being currently played don't go on adventures in their downtime, presumably performing activities such as those described on page 187 of the 5e PHB, or one ends up with a situation where different PCs are in different times. The latter approach seems to me to be unworkable as it could result in time paradoxes if a session set in the game world's past results in changes to a particular location or character that weren't accounted for in a session set in the present.

BigVanVader · Oct 23, 2014

I have no problem with everyone starting at first level from a mechanical standpoint. There are ways to make it work I'm sure. And I get why older school DMs do it, because earning your levels is great.

But it baffles me why first level Nancy Drew is hanging out with ninth level Superman. I mean, yeah she's smart and a plucky hero, but he's punching comets out of the sky, and ripping his way out of an elder Dragon's stomach. What is she contributing to the Justice League she's just joined?

First level Rocky is a great boxer, no doubt about it. But why is James Bond and Lara Croft bringing him along on their epic level quest across the world? What is he bringing to the table? Is he helping them chase chickens in the morning? Is that why he was allowed to come to the Russian minister's dinner party and contribute nothing?

I mean, yeah, some people take on wards and sidekicks, but for the most part, you tend to hang out with people similar to yourself. If you're a cosmic god with a jacket full of Vorpal pen knives that you've gathered from the fourth dimension, you aren't going to pal around with some 18 year old Paladin with rusty chainmail and a dull training sword. The ninja turtles are all almost the same level, if not the same. And Splinter may be higher, but he's not going out adventuring with them all the time. Casey Jones may be lower, but he's mostly off doing his own thing.

I just don't want to be the Nancy Drew of the party, while I watch the Supermen wrestle with storm giants and trade blows with Orcus. That's all, man.

KarinsDad · Oct 23, 2014

Mishihari Lord said:
Really? When I've played with a mix of 1st to 12th level characters, the higher level PCs pretty much always loaned the lower level guys their backup gear. It increases survivability quite a lot.

And if the lowbies can't contribute that's the DM's fault. There are plenty of ways to allow low level PCs to reasonable contribute. Frex, the high level PCs do a frontal assault on the dragon, while the low level guys take on the orc minions gaurding the floozle. Once they've got it, it's time to run. And it's very little additional work to design encounters this way since I craft each encounter to the particular PCs anyway.

Reasonable to you might not be reasonable to a given player playing the game.

I have been in these types of scenarios and these types of games (GURPS, not D&D) and sorry, it just plain sucks to be the 5th wheel, no matter how much the DM tries to morph the campaign world to fit the PCs.

If a given player likes this type of thing, great. More power to him. From my experience doing it, I think it sucks.

DMZ2112 · Oct 23, 2014

In line with the flow of the current discussion, I tend to think that a player whose character bites the big one ought to be given the choice. Come in as a new level-appropriate recruit, with a sob story about their last party, or come in as a freshly minted 1st level adventurer, full of piss, vinegar, and extra squish. Particularly in a long-running game, I would not want to rob a player of the opportunity to start building a character from scratch again, but if they don't want to, forcing them would be cruel. That's a hard road.

I also like Hackmaster's protege system, where you can bank XP and gear toward a backup character so you don't have to start over at 1st level post-swack iron dragon; Dark Sun 2e's character tree system, where you have multiple characters with a roleplaying link who all advance at a fraction of the rate of the active character in case of cannibal halflings; and Only War's comrades, who are support PCs who can step into a full PC's shoes in the event of ork boot.

Mishihari Lord · Oct 23, 2014

BigVanVader said:
I have no problem with everyone starting at first level from a mechanical standpoint. There are ways to make it work I'm sure. And I get why older school DMs do it, because earning your levels is great.

But it baffles me why first level Nancy Drew is hanging out with ninth level Superman. I mean, yeah she's smart and a plucky hero, but he's punching comets out of the sky, and ripping his way out of an elder Dragon's stomach. What is she contributing to the Justice League she's just joined?

First level Rocky is a great boxer, no doubt about it. But why is James Bond and Lara Croft bringing him along on their epic level quest across the world? What is he bringing to the table? Is he helping them chase chickens in the morning? Is that why he was allowed to come to the Russian minister's dinner party and contribute nothing?

I mean, yeah, some people take on wards and sidekicks, but for the most part, you tend to hang out with people similar to yourself. If you're a cosmic god with a jacket full of Vorpal pen knives that you've gathered from the fourth dimension, you aren't going to pal around with some 18 year old Paladin with rusty chainmail and a dull training sword. The ninja turtles are all almost the same level, if not the same. And Splinter may be higher, but he's not going out adventuring with them all the time. Casey Jones may be lower, but he's mostly off doing his own thing.

I just don't want to be the Nancy Drew of the party, while I watch the Supermen wrestle with storm giants and trade blows with Orcus. That's all, man.

This issue is already handwaved in D&D to such an extent that adding a level gap doesn't change much. Almost every D&D I've ever seen has been full of PCs that would not be reasonably be working together. Paladins & Assassin, Cavalier & Thief, clerics of opposing gods, races with traditional antipathy, half-orcs & anyone else, and so on, and so on. They're working together because they're PCs. I dislike metagame reasons for in-game play as much as the next guy, but this one I put up with because doing otherwise would limit players options for characters too sharply.

BASHMAN · Oct 23, 2014

Mishihari Lord said:
Really? When I've played with a mix of 1st to 12th level characters, the higher level PCs pretty much always loaned the lower level guys their backup gear. It increases survivability quite a lot.

And if the lowbies can't contribute that's the DM's fault. There are plenty of ways to allow low level PCs to reasonable contribute. Frex, the high level PCs do a frontal assault on the dragon, while the low level guys take on the orc minions gaurding the floozle. Once they've got it, it's time to run. And it's very little additional work to design encounters this way since I craft each encounter to the particular PCs anyway.

Our Highbies don't even have 1 magic weapon a piece; let alone spares to hand out to people. But we do have vast sums of gold we are not allowed to spend on such items items because "wonder"... >:-(

I originally designed my character to fight with two scimitars (ninja-tos) but switched to longsword (katana) because that was the only magic item I could get.

BigVanVader · Oct 23, 2014

Mishihari Lord said:
This issue is already handwaved in D&D to such an extent that adding a level gap doesn't change much. Almost every D&D I've ever seen has been full of PCs that would not be reasonably be working together. Paladins & Assassin, Cavalier & Thief, clerics of opposing gods, races with traditional antipathy, half-orcs & anyone else, and so on, and so on. They're working together because they're PCs. I dislike metagame reasons for in-game play as much as the next guy, but this one I put up with because doing otherwise would limit players options for characters too sharply.

Yeah but there's a difference between an Orc and a Dwarf from similar circles palling around, and tenth level Jennifer Lopez hanging out and shopping with first level Phillip the Fisherman.

Piratecat · Oct 23, 2014

BigVanVader said:
Yeah but there's a difference between an Orc and a Dwarf from similar circles palling around, and tenth level Jennifer Lopez hanging out and shopping with first level Phillip the Fisherman.

"Quick, everyone! J-Lo and Phi-Fi are hanging out down on the pier!"

D&D 5E Everyone Starts at First Level

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