D&D 5E Bards: How did these become a thing?

So much quality insight in one thread. Bookmarking this one.

doctorhook said:

Confession time: I don't "get" bards as a character concept. I have a hard time imagining a cool character whose main power is music or singing during a fight; that's always seemed kinda lame to me.

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The problem is not singing, but wanting to frame everything into combat, and using combat as the ultimate measure for everything.

You could have a character of the Wizard class perfectly represent a Bard, without worrying whether she is ever singing during a fight.

But you could also have had a Bard class with some mechanics associated to singing, only not necessary while fighting.

If there is any lameness, IMHO is in simultaneously allowing some Bardic features to be usable instantly (i.e. one action or less, therefore usable in combat) but requiring a musical instrument, especially since nearly all of them require two hands. The sight of a hero jumping around the battlefield singing and rhyming with a guitar is comical at best (quite Monty-Pythonesque to me) but this can be totally inappropriate if the campaign is serious and not comical.

In most cases, narratively it would make a lot more sense for Bards to use their performance-based abilities between combats, when they have all the time and comfort for such performance. And it sounds a lot better than a whole song is magically capable of healing you up or insiring you, rather than a 6-seconds excerpt... [This doesn't mean that Bards should have no such capabilities... in fact they have spells, and even tho I am not sure whether the final PHB requires instruments to cast Bardic spells - which would be indeed lame - there is no need for every single Bard feature to actually require music or performance]

And then of course I see stuff like this, and I totally throw what I just said to the garbage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5UVMIrv0Yc

Li Shenron said:

If there is any lameness, IMHO is in simultaneously allowing some Bardic features to be usable instantly (i.e. one action or less, therefore usable in combat) but requiring a musical instrument, especially since nearly all of them require two hands. The sight of a hero jumping around the battlefield singing and rhyming with a guitar is comical at best (quite Monty-Pythonesque to me) but this can be totally inappropriate if the campaign is serious and not comical.

In most cases, narratively it would make a lot more sense for Bards to use their performance-based abilities between combats, when they have all the time and comfort for such performance. And it sounds a lot better than a whole song is magically capable of healing you up or insiring you, rather than a 6-seconds excerpt... [This doesn't mean that Bards should have no such capabilities... in fact they have spells, and even tho I am not sure whether the final PHB requires instruments to cast Bardic spells - which would be indeed lame - there is no need for every single Bard feature to actually require music or performance]

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The problem is people see bards as silly musician prancing about the battlefield and singing little songs.

But no one sees the rocker in war paint, surrounded by smoke and lights, rapidly playing a sick solo down on both knees hair flair and death and fires shooting put between his fingertips to roast his enemies.

Or the lyricist talking about how great he and his crew are, how jealous others are, and how he will destroy haters. His foes infected by his flow and secretly striking to his tune making dodges easy and counterattack obvious.

It's a berserker thing. It freaks your enemies out and raises morale when you have a crazy guy with you that sings out of battle-lust while he slays his opponents. c.f. Singing swords, they sing more loudly the more blood they spill.

doctorhook said:

Confession time: I don't "get" bards as a character concept. I have a hard time imagining a cool character whose main power is music or singing during a fight; that's always seemed kinda lame to me. Most other class concepts I can't think of some (or several) inspiration from popular movies or TV or comics. Does this archetype really exist outside of D&D and media built from D&D?

Tell me what makes bards so cool to you.

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Wow. I posted almost exactly the same post when 4e came out. So, I get it. I used to think the were horribly, cringingly bad.

But, somehow, things have changed in the last 6, 7 years?. I don't know if it is me, or the game, but I am excited about playing a bard soon. I guess they grew on me?

Riddle Master of Hed had some bards, and so did some of the Dragon-riders of Pern.

DaveDash said:

The main thing that annoys me about Bards are that certain combat mechanics are tied to athletics/acrobatics.

And then you have expertise, which IMO is broken combined with Grapple/Shove on Bards, especially when monsters generally don't even get any proficiency bonus to those skills.

Also thematically jujitsu Bards "just cause they're jack of all trades" vexes me greatly.

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Don't think jujitsu. Think wrestlers. As in Macho Man and Hulk Hogan and whatever they go by these days. These are clearly entertainers who do a great job with grappling.

Minigiant said:

Or the lyricist talking about how great he and his crew are, how jealous others are, and how he will destroy haters. His foes infected by his flow and secretly striking to his tune making dodges easy and counterattack obvious.

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You mean like this?
[video=youtube;i_xFOmYxKYw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_xFOmYxKYw[/video]

Minigiant said:

The problem is people see bards as silly musician prancing about the battlefield and singing little songs.

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The minstrel bard is iconic. Call it a troubadour if you want, but that is the image which many players and game systems try to emulate and make viable.

Maybe that's a better question, of why this is the iconic bard. Was it due to art associated with the class, back in the day?

Saelorn said:

The minstrel bard is iconic. Call it a troubadour if you want, but that is the image which many players and game systems try to emulate and make viable.

Maybe that's a better question, of why this is the iconic bard. Was it due to art associated with the class, back in the day?

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I mentioned this earlier, but I have to believe the original bard depicted as a minstrel in D&D was heavily influenced by The Chronicles of Prydain, more specifically Fflewddur Flam. The first books were written in 1964, and they appear in Appendix N. If you haven't read those books, I highly suggest it. The Disney move, The Black Cauldron was from one of the books. Granted, even though the books seem to be written for younger adult readers, they are much more darker than the animated movie, and hold up quite well.

Really, Lloyd Alexander was a bit ahead of his time as well, as the princess in those books, Eilwony, was not your damsel in distress type of character. In fact, she was the toughest fighter of the group and didn't put up with crap from anyone. Truly a rare and good thing for a book written 50 years ago.